So which one did he leave out?
Only because the goalposts moved.
Only in the sense that you’re wrong.
I know DtC has a reputation for making inflammatory statements and then back-pedalling out of them through “clarification” (goalpost-shifting, what-have-you), but in this case, I don’t think we should hesitate to grant him the benefit of the doubt: the only reasonable interpretation of his post was one taking “anyone” to mean “any significant number of people”. Obviously, in a world of six billion people, some small number of counterexamples can usually be found to any generalization about human behavior, and surely DtC did not mean to make such an absolute statement as to rule this out.
What he did intend with his statement has not really been shown false.
No I’m not. And the goal posts haven’t moved. All that’s happening is that some people are pretending to take an obviously figurative phrase literally in order to use it as a lame and transparent excuse for a gotchya ya.
Last week, a repair guy in my building wished me a Merry Christmas and I automatically responded with the same. I’m atheist, he is Hindu. Oops. 
Jews don’t celebrate solstices. I’d think the fact that we follow a lunar calender would be a big hint in that regard.
Anyway, I’m not offended by “Merry Christmas.” However, If someone who knows I’m Jewish says it to me, my main response is bewilderment - what does Christmas have to do with me? It’s like wishing me a happy birthday when it isn’t my birthday.
So an accountant I’ll never be.
Oh c’mon. You do realize that the whole bit about the oil lasting so long was added to the story centuries later to explain why we were lighting candles this time of year. Jews were marking Winter Solstice too. And still do.
And how much actual celebration occurs at this time of year in Israel?
Judaism, originating in an area where even at the winter solstice, there is more than ten hours of daylight can more easily ignore the solstice. People in lands where there are from nine hours of daylight, (Rome, New York City, Chicago), down to fewer than eight hours of daylight (London, Amsterdam, Berlin), are more susceptible to celebrating the solstice and the traditions being discussed in the thread to which I alluded originated in Europe, not the Levant.
Since the point was that religion, (particularly Christmas), was a thin veneer on the solstice celebration, what you folks to the South do at that point in the unused solar calendar is not really pertinent.
I’m not sure about that. After all, winter nights down here aren’t as long or as cold as they are up where you are - they’re generally quite pleasent. Plus, it often rains around now, and rain is always good.
I offer no reasons for the story, but I don’t think it was tacked on centuries later. It appears in the Christian versions of the Book of Maccabees that is probably frozen in its first century form.
Jew here, and quite observant by just about any standard. If a stranger said Merry Christmas, I’d respond “you too”. No offense intended, and while I can question their observational prowess (I wear a kippah, after all), I don’t generally assume that I’m being proselytized or discriminated against when people forget that not everyone is Christian (or atheist-- my god, it’s not like christmas is just for christians anymore. Hell, it never was, if we’re being history conscious).
If someone who knows me well says merry christmas, there are three possibilities, and a fourth highly unlikely one. The first is, they forgot that I’m Jewish. What am I gonna do, lobby Congress for national remember-alex-is-Jewish-day? I’m not that kinda Jew (i KNOW that’s gonna offend one of my coreligionists-- so insert Jews-aren’t-hypersensitive-and-that’s-a-harmful-stereotype caveat here). The proper response is something witty, but not bitter, which reminds them that not everyone is christian while not coming off as offended or offensive. something like “happy Hanukah” generally suffices.
the second, is that they are messing with me. in which case I will respond “happy kwanzaa”, or, if I’m under the impression that they celebrate kwanzaa, “may the solstice bring you a glorious bounty”, or some such nonsense (if you believe that solstice celebrations help yield a glorious bounty, then I apologize). Lighten up, people.
the third, is that they hope I have a merry Christmas, because in their minds, the end of december is christmastime, and they are hoping that I, like anyone else to whom they bear no ill will, enjoy that time. I thank them, and once again respond “merry Kwanzaa” “felix saturnalia” or the like.
The highly unusual fourth is that they are actually consciously trying to offend me. I do not acknowledge such people with a response. Nor have I run into one this christmas season. Oops, hanukah season.
I also am afraid that uptight, humorless, PC types will someday confiscate some of our freedom of speech in the interest of pacifying some group that really shouldn’t be making such a big deal of whatever it is they’re making a big deal of, so I pray that there aren’t many Jews (or anything else) who DO take undue umbrage. My friends from England (also Orthodox Jewish, and observant) find it silly that “Season’s Greetings” is the only acceptable December greeting there. I really wish religious minorities would grow up, here (NY) and abroad. Grow some skin, people.
That may not be historically accurate. If you would like, I can procure a list of sources
(Maccabbees 1 and 2, Josephus Flavius, Talmud Bavli Masechet Shabbat page twentysomething [i know i lose jewpoints for not remember the page of Talmud off the top of my head, but it’s been a while since yeshivah in Jerusalem], talmud bavli masechet avoda zara, few others which again, can easily look up if you’re interested)
which pretty much show that the original hanukah celebration was about winning the war (which didn’t even end there) against the Hellenists. the name hanukah refers to Hanukat hamizbe’ach, the restoration of the altar in the then-temple. the eight days thing is explained best by Maccabees 2 (an apocryphal book which nevertheless is as close as we have to an accurate historical account), wherein the narrator describes the Jewish soldiers as having missed the Sukkot celebration, along with sh’mini atzeret, and so when they restored the Temple and ousted the armies of Antiochus they dedicated eight days to celebration.
it is also likely that they already lit lights at that time, the solstice was a festival of lights for just about every culture. In fact, the source in Avoda Zarah describes “the first solstice” of Adam. He feared, as he saw the nights getting longer, that light would be extinguished from the world, so he celebrated after hte solstice when the days began to lengthen, according to this talmudic source. In other words, it seeks to explain the origins of global solstice festivals.
It’d make sense, additionally, for there to already be a jewish festival at this time (though it is not commanded, and makes no appearance in the Torah), because it is the time of the Israeli olive harvest, as a Tel Aviv resident like yourself undoubtedly knows.
Hence the connection between hanukah and a jar of olive oil lasting 8 days. The gemara in Masechet shabbat, which is the source of our celebration of hannukah and the 8-day-candle story, is a few centuries later than the Maccabbees’ 164 BCE victory. its words regarding the miracle of hannukah basically quote Maccabees verbatim, with a few words literally cut and pasted about the miracle of oil.
So yes, it seems historically accurate, and not at all threatening (I hope), to say that Jews already celebrated a winter solstice festival (though not a biblically ordained Mo’ed) with lights, perhaps even lights made from olive oil.
Well, I guess I stand corrected. Thanks, everybody.
It’s interesting, BTW, how despite everyone saying that Hanukah is such a minor Jewish holiday, it is in fact a HUGE deal here in Israel - for completely different reasons than in the U.S.
I’m sure you’re right that he intended to say “any significant number of people.”
Still, it’s worth clarifying, because there’s a certain rhetorical heft that goes with his choice of words that he’s not really entitled too, especially in GD, which has long been home to legions of nitpickers – a legion for which I am obviously a card-carrying member.
Tom I refer you to Schindler’s authoritative documentation of how the oil lasting eight days bit was added on centuries later above. Thanks Alex for providing the documentation that I certainly could not have provided myself off my head like that.
Alessan, what are the reasons that the Holiday is such a huge deal in Israel?
As to the op, I guess you could try to define “significant”. There are certainly quite a few of us who are not horribly upset but get very mildly annoyed. And that level of annoyance depends, it seems, upon the circumstance. A greeting from an individual who has no way of knowing any better registers no annoyance. Institutionalized greetings in a circumstance where those in charge should know better, mild annoyance. Governmental institutionalized greeting more so. A bit more to public school teachers asking whole classrooms of young children to make Christmas decorations and to talk about how they are going to celebrate Christmas. And most annoyance to those few who knowingly try to offend, even though they do not.
That seems to be a consensus that we can all wassail to.
And a Happy Solstice to all!
That covers my thoughts exactly.
It’s snowing - I’m going skiing! Fresh untracked powder to you all!
Well, for one, its just so fun. Candles, lights, no onerous religious ceremony, the best holiday food of the year, by far the best holiday songs of the year. Plus, if you’re a kid, you get 8 days of vacation from school - you can’t bet that.
But the main reason Hanukkah is so popular has something to do with the whole Zionist-warrior ethos. The Holiday is not only about a jar of oil that lasted 8 days: it’s also about a rag-tag band of heroic Maccabees who threw off the shackles of oppression and won national liberty. It’s the Holiday where instead of God saving us, we mainly saved ourselves. In that sense, it’s as much a secular festival as a religious one - a second Independence Day.
I was just going to say – the tone of Hannakah is probably more akin to the American 4th of July than to Christmas. It’s more a patriotic celebration in Israel than a religious one.