What’s the mystery. Churchgoers do it specifically as a sign of reverence. Football players do it specifically as a sign of irreverence.
Frankly, I think the players should just kneel on the field right before the opening kickoff, after the anthem. I think it’s a more powerful message to do it while otherwise doing their job, not just while “appearing.”
I don’t like this symbol, or any symbol, that suggests an American doesn’t like their country, especially from someone with a cush job like theirs. It suggests they’re giving up on their country, and in Kaep’s own words, are not proud of it. I’m sympathetic to the cause of black equality. I’m not sympathetic to the method of purposefully disrespecting national symbols.
If you ignore that Kaepernick chose kneeling specifically because a veteran told him it was still respectful, then sure, it’s disrespectful. The whole “someone with a cush job like theirs” sounds a lot like “Dance for the man!”
Point is, star athletes have a LOT of access to the media, and have MANY ways to get a political message out. They can go On any number of TV and radio shows and say EXACTLY what they want to say. If they do, they may have a positive impact.
If, instead, they engage in a symbolic act that they should KNOW is only going to piss people off, they shouldn’t be surprised if their cause is forgotten.
Athletes take a knee when another player, whether a teammate or an opponent, is injured and receiving treatment on the field. It’s a sign of respect, a recognition that someone needs help, and a desire that the problem gets fixed soon.
Why would you not think an athlete could have the same sort of feelings toward his country as for his fellows?
What would you recommend they do instead, other than just shut up and not bother you with all that thought stuff?
People keep saying it like he went to the Supreme Court of Veterans and got a favorable judgment sealed with a wax insignia or something. So he got “permission” from a veteran…big deal. This veteran hereby “revokes” said permission.
Because I, a veteran, call it disrespectful, do you now agree that it is disrespectful? Why or why not? Are you just going to ignore that I said it? Are you suggesting the opinion of one, single veteran doesn’t mean a whole lot to you?
I don’t know what “Dance for the man!” sounds like because I’ve literally never heard anyone say it before. I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Because he’s said otherwise: “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,” Kaepernick told reporters." It’s right there. “Not going to show pride in a country.” This isn’t a sign of respect or a recognition that the nation needs help. It’s an outright refusal to be proud to be an American.
What do you think he’d say if you asked Kaep “Are you proud of your country?”
The point is that he specifically altered what he was doing in order to be more respectful, based on what a veteran told him. That means that he’s not doing it to be disrespectful to veterans. If he was, then he would not have changed his actions.
So any claim he is doing this as an insult to our troops is false. He adopted a way of showing his displeasure in a way specifically designed not to offend you. **If you choose to be offended anyways, that is your own problem. **
What in the world does pride in one’s country have to do with anything being discussed here? You are the first one to bring that up. He believes his country is doing a bad thing. Of course he isn’t proud of his country while it is doing a bad thing. I’m not proud of my nephew when he makes fun of little kids, either.
That doesn’t mean I don’t love my nephew. It doesn’t mean I disrespect my nephew by letting him know that I’m not proud of his actions.
I don’t expect anyone to be proud of their country right now. Even if this police racism wasn’t a problem, our country is in disarray. Even if you are on Trump’s side, there’s not really anything to be proud of. What has America done since Trump came into office that you can actually say “You know what? I want to proclaim I am an American to everyone, because we did something so good!”
Claiming a lack of pride in one’s country as if it is some bad thing is stupid. It’s just used to discredit those who have a legitimate grievance. It’s just a lack of morality to always be proud of something, regardless of whether they are doing good or evil.
If the fact that at least 50% of our country is not proud to be an American right now bothers you, then the only solution is to join us in trying to fight to make America something we can be proud of again.
Trump failed to do it, but we could in fact Make America Great Again. Then we can be proud of it again.
The idea that people are required to like their country is absolutely disgusting. It means they can do no wrong in their eyes. That is horrible, and leads to authoritarianism.
Starting to get into IMHO/GD territory but I’ll agree here. I consider myself pretty patriotic, I’m proud of this country and think it never stopped being great, but I understand if others disagree. This country was founded by people who broke away from a nation they no longer wanted to be part of and they officially put the right to dissent against your country or anything else you believe in into the foundation of the nation. The Constitution supports what Kaepernick is doing. Others don’t have to, and that’s their right too. We all have these rights because we respect freedom of speech and expression and we continue to be world leader in those freedoms (by objective analysis). Those wanting to shut down Colin are ironically trampling over what this country stands for.
He got advice from a veteran. He’s gotten support from veterans (including myself). Does your opinion invalidate my own? You can feel its disrespectful, and that’s because you choose to ignore exactly what he’s doing and why.
I’ve said it elsewhere. I enlisted to defend a country, its ideals, and its people. I never signed up to defend a patterned piece of fabric. I didn’t sign up to protect a tune. I gave an oath to defend the Constitution, and the very first change they made to it was to enshrine the right to protest. I have zero problems with people exercising that right, even if I choose not to join them. And I’m sure as hell not gonna pull my “I SERVED, SO RESPECT ME!” card just because I want to ignore their views on what’s happening in our society.
When NBA players wore hoodies as a sign of unity with Trayvon Martin, they got blasted for it. When athletes wore shirts saying, “I Can’t Breathe”, they got trashed. If you haven’t noticed, a portion of our country and media simply don’t care how they’re protesting, they’re always doing it wrong. At some point, a lot of other people are seeing only one similarity in all the protests and the accompanying anger.
Then someone says, “Screw it, why show pride in a country that seems to only want to shit on people like me,” and everyone loses their minds.
Nah, all they have to do is acknowledge that all those incidents they’re protesting were totally justified and had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with racism. Easy, huh?
Why do you find it disrespectful? If Colin Kaepernick explains that he doesn’t intend for his message to be disrespectful to veterans and that he is instead simply using it to protest something that has really no relationship to the role of armed services, then why isn’t that good enough? It seems to me that some people are intentionally imposing their own worldview and trying to dictate to someone what his protest means rather than listening to the actual source of the protest explain what it means?
FWIW, I can understand that people don’t like the manner and the platform Kap uses to express his protest. Yes, there probably are ways to express protest that would be less offensive to veterans, but at the same time, the aim of protest is to get people’s attention, to stir the pot. It’s a balance, in my view: trying to stir the pot without unnecessarily provoking or going to far in the process.
As an example, I think taking a knee during the anthem is going to get people to take notice and to start a conversation. But I strongly disagree that it’s the same as burning or urinating on a flag - degree matters here, and it’s dishonest to, as I believe at least one or two posters on SDMB have opined, say that taking a knee during an anthem is in the same category as more extreme examples of hostility toward national symbols.
I do understand that veterans, police officers, and many civilians alike wish Colin Kaepernick would find a different way to protest, but quite honestly, the degree of outrage indicates to me that something is a little off. And in any case, if conservatives would just ignore him, he’d probably just go away. Nobody would be talking about Kaepernick if he were a 2nd or 3rd-string QB and taking a knee because nobody would care after a while - he becomes old news. But he’s news because he’s being blackballed by conservative owners and he’s even bigger news because an idiotic administration uses his protests to divide the country along racial lines. So if you want to blame people, maybe blame the ones who refuse to let the controversy die in the first place.
So it sound like he’s claiming he would have been willing to take a backup position but was never offered that opportunity either. At the very least, if the Seahawks did make him a backup offer, that should come out as soon as the hearing starts, since it would be a concrete event the owners could point to to refute his complaint.
I never mentioned anything about veterans or troops. Neither did Kaep.
No, Kaep brought it up first. It’s in his quote, explaining why he does what he does.
That’s because you and he are bad Americans.
That’s absurdly false, and I’m embarrassed and ashamed that you could think so, and think yourself a worthy citizen of this country.
No, it isn’t. It’s a very bad thing, a moral failing. If you are not proud to be American, you do not deserve my respect. It’s that simple.
Horseshit. The liberal left just has a hard-on for self-hate of all varieties, and they want to make sure you hate yourself as much as possible for everything you do and everything you are. Your “it means” statement is completely non sequitur. What’s disgusting is that you think it’s OK to not be proud of the United States of America.
Nobody’s arguing about rights to do things. Bringing up the Constitution is a distraction. You’re taking “I do not agree with what you say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it” and completely ignoring the first part. Do we now have to agree with everything everyone says? Someone says “I’m not proud to be an American,” and I’m supposed to say “That’s totally cool, not offensive at all.”
Don’t tell me what I consider and what I ignore. “And why” is exactly what’s disrespectful about it. If he just felt like kneeling to get time off his feet, I’d say nothing. I’d support the guy. He doesn’t do it because his legs are tired; he specifically does it because he’s not proud of his country. That’s not OK.
The flag and the song don’t need defending, as they aren’t under threat. Kaep’s speech is distasteful and offensive. Words needn’t imperil the flag, the song, or the Constitution to be offensive.
Nobody’s talking about violating the Constitution. But you seem to have a problem with people like me who do choose not to join him and actively denounce him.
I don’t need him to respect me. Bringing veterans into this is a red herring, tossed by the dickhead in chief. Kaep isn’t focusing on veterans and neither am I.
A lot of people are flailing about, trying to change what’s actually being done here. It’s slippery slope this, non sequitur that, red herring the other thing. Did I mention anything at all about hoodies or shirts? Did I blast anyone or trash anyone for those protest actions? Did I?
I never mentioned anything about veterans or troops. Neither did Kaep.
That’s my argument in its entirety. We’ve got people talking about veterans, Constitutions, free speech, hoodies, and tshirts. I am “listening to the actual source of the protest explain what it means,” and I don’t like what I hear. It’s repugnant. By all means, tell me again I don’t think what I think I think, that I haven’t considered the truuuuuuue meaning, that it’s about something it’s not, and I will tell you once again…saying you are not proud of America is something you just don’t say.
Thing is, I don’t care if you do offend veterans. That’s not really the point in this case.
I don’t know who these “one or two” posters are, but they aren’t me.
I don’t really care about the way he protests. I care about what he says he stands (well, kneels) for. He had one of the best jobs in the entire nation, and has the gall to say he’s not proud of the nation that gave him what he has. If he’d just acknowledge that the nation, for all its faults, allowed him to secure the Blessings of Liberty to himself and his Posterity, it’d be a different story, but it doesn’t seem like he does.