As I’ve said before several times, no. But he’s the wrong guy to say it at this time. Any merit his statement has is overshadowed by its timing.
It’s a slippery slope, ain’t it?
If they’re going to not speak out publicly about the matter until their team is on the wrong end of it, then they’re being hypocritical.
If they have to say anything at all about it, it should be in meetings with other GMs or the commissioner or the Board of Directors or whomever can actually do something about it. Whining about it publicly after benefiting from the League’s inefficiency in dealing with it just comes across as sour grapes.
This is the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard.
So, he’s dirty and reckless, but he contributes to the team… so he gets a pass?
This is supposed to justify Matt Cooke? Gillies is a goon who’s better at fighting than scoring–the same could be said for many players: George Laraque, Arron Asham, Eric Godard, Michael Rupp…
Continued employment is implied acceptance of his behavior. It’s not just that he’s employed… he was extended, knowing full well what kind of player he was, is, and shows every sign that he will be in the future.
Once again, you’re trying to separate the level of dirtiness as if being less dirty than someone else makes it acceptable.
It’s like arguing that Ted Bundy was worse than Jeffrey Dahmer because necrophilia is worse than cannibalism. It’s overlooking the key issue: they’re both murderers.
And as to your last point about Cooke never seeking to cause injury: you’re delusional. We don’t have to go back very far for evidence, either–he’s currently serving a suspension for doing exactly that.
Okay? So the offensive dynamo was against being restrained. He’s a saint! That wasn’t self-serving at all!
This point has nothing to do with anything.
Sure he is. And we’re allowed to deem him a hypocrite for doing so.
Your false dichotomy about Cooke having value justifying his actions is really starting to wear thin.
He’s on the Board of Directors. He has Bettman’s phone number. The GMs all get together now and then to discuss such things. There’s going to be a big meeting with the NHLPA to discuss the next CBA.
These are all appropriate places to bring up his point. Waiting until his team gets sucker punched like it’s been doing to other teams and largely getting away with for years to speak up about cheap shots is the wrong time.
The way I see it, Lemieux was in such a position right up to the Pens-Isles game, because at that point several travesties had been let slip by the league. Remember, that happened during the same week Marc Savard had to announce that he’s out for the season - and possibly for his career - due to a second concussion following what is arguably one of the most controversial hits/discipline events in the league last year. It was the same week where another “fight-filled game”, complete with discipline worthy actions, went completely unnoticed by the league. It was the same week where rather weak suspensions were given to other players for the types of actions he’s complaining about - with the entire Savard controversy being that much more raw in people’s minds because one of the suspended players was Cooke.
Speaking out in response to the discipline handed out after that game - and I’m frankly amazed the league even gave any, given how terrible they usually are - , and using the “I don’t wanna play anymore! This league isn’t fair!” spin on it… at that point, he wasn’t in a position to complain about “fair” given the context.
Could he be back in a position to complain? Yeah, eventually. Like if Mario has a good long talk with Cooke before suiting him up for his next game. I wish a team could take discipline in their own hands, and scratch him a little longer, but that’s not going to happen. If Lemieux speaks up when another team is affected by a blind-side hit, or another dirty play that could severely injure a player, etc. If he goes to the GM meetings and starts raising hell about the need to re-write Rule 48, or stiffen disciplinary action against dangerous boarding, slew-footing, what have you.
I guess that’s what I feel he needs to do now; his rant so far was self-serving. If he really cares about the game, and wants to stop the travesties, I guess he’ll have to work even harder than I think he would have had he spoken up before that Pens-Isles game.
Other coaches, GMs, owners and players need to start speaking up too. Fuck the Old-Time-Hockey Code of Silence; it’s ridiculous, and it’s damaging.
This argument seems to be the definition of shooting the messenger.
This is an odd argument, I believe. If everything had been the same, except it were an Islanders-Lightning game and it had been Steven Stamkos taking an elbow to the head, would we all be talking about Downie? Would we be calling Yzerman a hypocrite for not speaking out sooner? I suspect not.
I never said that. Did you ignore the part where I said that Cooke deserves every suspension he gets and more?
My argument was that there is a false dichotomy between employing Matt Cooke and calling up Trevor Gillies/Michael Haley specifically to attack defenseless players and not back down until their actions injure someone.
Lemieux didn’t issue a complaint after Alexander Ovechkin hit Sergei Gonchar knee-on-knee in the playoffs. Or after Andy Sutton severely concussed Jordan Leopold last year in the Ottawa playoff series. Or after David Steckel accidentally concussed Sidney Crosby with a shoulder-to-head hit. Why? Because those plays occurred within the context of the game, despite being dangerous, illegal, and dirty. Ovechkin, Sutton, and Steckel aren’t on the ice specifically to hurt people. They’re real hockey players and Lemieux was silent when his team was on the receiving end of dirty (or accidental, but still damaging as in the case of Steckel) hits.
Like I said, nothing is supposed to justify any dirty plays by Cooke. He deserves to be suspended for all of his dirty plays. I am not sure what your point is here by bringing up several Penguin fighters here. Are you trying to argue that the Penguins are somehow doing something nobody else in the league is?
Asham and Rupp are quality bottom-six forwards on any team. Both have 10-goal seasons under their belts and are classic power forwards. Yes they also fight, but I don’t think any hockey fan would argue fighting is equivalent to “playing dirty”. Have any of the players you’ve named actually attacked someone on the ice rather than fighting in the man-to-man, style where both participants agree to drop the gloves? I will answer for you… they have not.
What kind of player he is? Meaning The 4th best defensive forward in the NHL? Why does Cooke get over 15 minutes per game for a playoff team? Because he has real value as an NHL player! I think the Penguins would ALL prefer he play without toeing the line. Again, I don’t say this to excuse his behavior because there is none–he deserves to have the book thrown at him. I bring up his value to the team because you are creating a false dichotomy between Cooke and what the Islanders did on Friday. Trevor Gillies and Michael Haley were on the ice to extract revenge for two clean hits in the previous game. They were not going to stop until someone’s face was broken. You’re the delusional one if you think Cooke spends every second of his 15 minutes of ice time doing nothing but trying to injure opponents.
See above. Do you think Cooke’s only purpose every time he is on the ice is to injure an opponent?
To summarize my argument into a two paragraphs. You are the one creating a false dichotomy. The Islanders went to their minor league system to call up a player (Michael Haley) specifically for that game so that he and Trevor Gillies could extract revenge by injuring other players in a pre-meditated manner. They had no interest in playing a hockey game that night. THAT is what Lemieux was decrying. The game was 100% superfluous to the Islanders goal that night. Lemieux’s teams have never, ever done that.
The Penguins have been on the receiving end of cheap shots in the past. Did they call up AHL goons or send Eric Godard out to injure Ovechkin or Sutton? They did not. For the game against the Capitals following Crosby’s concussion, did they call up an AHL goon to attack Steckel with a sucker punch at center ice or throw an elbow into his face? They did not. Steckel declined Rupp’s invitation to fight and eventually fought a smaller player and then the issue was settled. There were no cheap shots. Lemieux would have been a hypocrite if he complained about the Islanders and then unleashed goons to deliberately injure Steckel while he was defenseless.
That’s what happens when the messenger delivers the message at the wrong time.
Why do you suspect that?
If the situation were different; if it were, say, Holmgren speaking out about a hit on a Flyer, you can certainly bet the talk would be about some guys he has on his roster.
There is no, as you seem to imply, inherent bias toward the Penguins people are taking this opportunity to bash them for. Lemieux spoke out of turn and he’s rightfully catching flak for it, just as any GM or owner would for doing so under these circumstances.
You imply it over and over again. He contributes. He’s the fourth best whatever. He’s got this many goals. He’s not just some goon who can only fight.
The implication is that he’s a valuable player who can do more than fight and so people should tolerate his reckless play because he’s not just some goon like Trevor Gillies.
Let me ask you this, what was your stance on Ovechkin a year or two ago when he was charging people and hitting players knee-on-knee? Were you the only fan of the Penguins to not be calling for his head? Were you championing his cause because he’s a valuable player who can do more than fight and so people should tolerate his reckless play because he’s not just some goon like Trevor Gillies?
It’s largely rhetorical, by the way. I know the answer and I know the answer you’ll give.
Prove that’s specifically why they were called up.
It would suit your revisionist history, but it fails to recognize two simple facts: the Islanders only have so many guys left to call up as they’ve lost the most man-games to injury in the League; and teams call up physical players (read: goons) when games are going to be physical–which any game against the League leaders in fighting majors and PIMs, the Penguins, is going to be.
If they were brought up specifically to attack defenseless players, why did they wait until the third period to do it? Gillies was a +1 and Haley had a goal… so it’s not like they were just skating around waiting for a Penguin to turn their back to them.
Neither did he make a fuss after the brouhaha in Boston several days earlier, the sucker punch by Staal on Prust or any of Crosby’s past transgressions like punching a guy in the nuts while he’s being held by another Penguin.
None of this changes the fact that his choosing now to complain about it is hypocritical.
You’ve yet to prove that those players were out there “specifically” to hurt people. And while you’re trying to prove it, perhaps you can explain what Laraque’s job was, exactly.
No, it’s demonstrating that your insistence that Cooke “has more goals this season than Trevor Gillies has in his entire 11-year professional career” as some kind of justification for his continued employment is patently ridiculous, particularly when one considers that the Penguins employ several players who function in the same role as Gillies.
Not the point, but you’ve not watched enough Arron Asham if you think he’s above board.
You keep saying this, but you have zero evidence of this. Your entire argument seems to be based around this assumption. Again, prove it.
He’s been suspended more than once for exactly those actions, and should have been suspended at least several other times for exactly that action. He may not be deliberately thinking up ways to injure people, but he tries to on a regular basis. Does premeditation make a reckless disregard for a fellow player’s health, and even life, any worse than someone who continually does it in the heat of the moment and doesn’t seem to be willing or able to change?
Isn’t the League’s lack of concern for player safety what Lemieux was railing against in his comment?
Starting to feel like there’s an echo in here. Again, prove it.
Prove. It. Prove it.
Provide some evidence that these guys were called up specifically to injure Penguins players. That they were instructed to injure Penguins players. That they went into the game with a clear mindset toward injuring someone.
Until you do, this is nothing but the ramblings of a butthurt Penguins fan.
Michael Haley has played in both games the Islanders have had since that game.
In those two games he’s had 12 and 13 shifts respectively (11 in the Pens game); been on the ice for over 8 minutes (5:31 in the Pens game); and racked up a grand total of 0 PIMs.
Somebody’s butthurt around here, but it ain’t UTejas.
(Just curious, and I’m not asking this sarcastically, but who do you generally root for, soulmurk? What’s your team?)
The Stars have to recover from an embarrassing loss light night and play the suddenly hot Calgary Flames. I can’t wait for the Western Conference playoffs, but the Stars need to remember to make the playoffs. I’m thinking the Stars should give Andrew Raycroft the start tonight in goal, but keep him on a very short leash. I’d also suggest playing some defense and working on the penalty kill, but that probably won’t be happening.
Ah, yes. I disagree with you so I must have an issue with the Penguins. I seem to recall that being your MO in the other thread, also.
I’m a Devils fan, not that it matters a single iota in regards to this conversation. I’m sure you’ll try to somehow use that information to discredit or attack me personally, though. There’s really no other reason for your having asked or not taken the 6 seconds to search… it’s not exactly a big secret as I’ve mentioned it both directly and indirectly numerous times in these monthly threads.
Didn’t you just get done dismissing someone’s opinion out of hand because they were just a butthurt Penguins fan? What a hypocrite! I guess that puts you in no position to make any comments about the Penguins, since it’s nothing but your self serving opinion.
Your MO is that you have a hard-on for the Penguins and don’t miss an opportunity to share it with everyone. Not exactly a paragon of impartial objectivity.
Before I address some of your comments about hockey, I’ve been polite to you so I am not quite sure why you are being so belligerent. I’d also perhaps suggest we start another Game Room Thread on this issue than continue to hijack what should be an ongoing thread about all things NHL this month.
I am not sure why this exactly invalidates my claim that Haley was out specifically to extract revenge against the Penguins. He was called up specifically on that date and fought both Max Talbot and Brent Johnson, the Islanders two targets. Given the suspensions the team is now facing and their injuries, it is not surprising that he’s continuing to play. If he’s still logging upwards of 10 minutes of ice time next year, that probably says all we need to know about the Islanders overall talent depth.
Look, I like a good hockey fight as much as the next person. I don’t want to see fighting totally eliminated – you know the old saying, “I came to a fight, and a hockey game broke out.” However, Lemieux was right – that WASN’T your typical hockey fighting, but a circus. Whatever your thoughts on Matt Cooke, Lemieux, whatever – that was fucked up, and it needs to be addressed. (And once AGAIN, I’m NOT defending Cooke’s style of play! Jesus!)
Now, that’s the last thing I’m going to say about that. As UTejas said, if you want to continue discussing the subject, start a new thread.
Now, to get this thread back on track, Blackhawks coach Quenneville has been hospitalized. The cause of his illness hasn’t been released, the only thing they’ve said is that it’s “non-cardiac”, and that so far he’s stable.
So is the message wrong? Now that the messenger has been shot, critique the message.
I suppose you could quite possibly be right. I suspect that, though, because Cooke has become public enemy number 1 in the NHL after the Savard incident. However, Mike Richards hit on David Booth was pretty much the same hit as Cooke on Savard so perhaps you are right. Still, I think the star power of the Penguins ownership combined with the NHL oversaturating the market with Crosby advertisement has made the Penguins a more prominent franchise than the Flyers.
What? I am not sure what you expect I will say. I was not calling for Ovechkin’s head after his knee-on-knee to Sergei Gonchar in the playoffs. I was calling for him to be suspended, sure. I was not calling for the Pens to dress Eric Godard to go out an injure him.
But let me ask you, what motivation would the Penguins have to NOT do just that? Godard played 0 minutes in the year the Pens won the Cup. Would he have been missed if he’d been suspended? Nothing other than respect for Ovechkin’s health and the fact the injury occurred on a hockey play was preventing the Pens from trying to hurt him in retaliation.
As for all this:
Pre-game quote courtesy of the Islanders beat writer on twitter:
“Karma has a way of working itself out–in life and in hockey–and usually you cross paths. Obviously, Mr. Cooke, we’re not going to cross his path tonight, but there will be a few out there and we’ll see what happens… Comeau is part of our family. We’re definitely not happy about it and we’re not happy he’s been out… Anytime one of our best players, a family member, gets a serious injury and you turn on the TV and you see someone laughing at it, obviously it doesn’t sit well with us.” - Zenon Konopka
Post-game from Konopka:
“A lot of liberties have been taken over the course of the season, and it can only be built up so much before it comes out. I’m proud of everyone for sticking up for each other.”
The Islanders organization as a whole was fined $100k, similar to the way the Canucks organization was fined for putting a hit out on Steve Moore.
Sure, the Islanders were frustrated, so they went on the attack. They were upset Comeau was hurt on a perfectly legal, clean hit by Talbot, so he was sucker punched at center ice then forced to fight two goons. They were upset DiPietro got hurt after initiating contact with Matt Cooke (as stated by the Islanders play-by-play guys!) and then challenging Brent Johnson, so they sent a goon to challenge Johnson. They were upset with OTHER TEAMS apparently taking liberties with John Taveres, so they sent a goon out to end Eric Tangradi’s career.
I offered that if he couldn’t prove the assumption that his entire argument was based on, then he was coming across as nothing but a bitter Penguins fan.
Clear that up for you, or do you need some further reading comprehension breakdown?
Not at all. That’s your argument because your team has been at the forefront of two unflattering discussions and you rush to their defense no matter how heinous their own actions might be.
The Penguins don’t even crack my top 5 of most hated teams. I’m largely neutral to them. It just so happens that they’re in the news right now and part of the general discussion. If it were any other team, we’d be talking about them with equal fervor.
No, again, the message is correct. The timing of the messenger is wrong. Do try to keep up, we’ve covered this since the beginning and that’s pretty much been everyone who isn’t from Pittsburgh’s stance from the start.
This discussion is only being advanced by a few people’s refusal to see the hypocrisy in Lemieux’s statement. Coincidentally, all of those people are fans of the Penguins.
If you want to believe that they have a larger target on their backs in the court of public opinion, that’s just fine, but by the same token they’ve brought that attention on themselves through their own actions and so any public backlash to it was a known possibility and they’re just reaping what they sow. No sympathy should be expected.
How do either of those quotes prove that Michael Haley was called up specifically with malicious, premeditated intent to injure defenseless players, per your accusation? And what does Konopka have to do with the decision to call a player up or not?
You’re quoting an angry borderline NHL player who usually speaks with his fists as if he speaks for the entire organization… which, if he did, he would be catching a hell of a lot more crap from the public and the League.
Vancouver was fined for “…failure to prevent the atmosphere that may have led to [the incident].” Not for “putting a hit out on Steve Moore.”
Besides, Vancouver was fined $250k, so does that mean the Canucks were two and a half times more responsible for Bertuzzi’s actions than the Islanders were for their players?
The League’s laughable Wheel of Justice being cited as evidence of anything other than its own ineptitude is ridiculous.
No one is condoning the Islanders actions. But your continued assertion that it was their specific intent is wrong and you have provided no evidence beyond stating your opinion as fact.
He was called up because he was next in line to be called up. If he were called up specifically for that game and specifically for the nefarious purpose you suggest, he would have been sent back down after it. Surely there is another player in the system that can contribute more in 8 minutes per night than Michael Haley the goon, so that he remains on the roster would seem to refute your assertion that he was specifically called up for that singular purpose.
With what teams have acquired for Fisher (1st rounder), Versteeg (1st and 3rd round picks) and Chris Kelly (2nd round pick), it appears to be a sellers market; which makes sense when one considers how many teams are on the bubble, especially in the West where the third seed is only 7 points ahead of the 12th seed and the Pacific Division has all five teams within 2 points of one another and every team in it has to have confidence that it can win the division with a strong run to end the season.
Is your team a buyer or a seller?
There’s a lot of talk in Jersey about a miracle run to the playoffs, and while it’s hard not to sip the Kool-Aid a little, it’s all but statistically impossible, so the Devils should be sellers.
Jason Arnott is the only big name acquisition but he has a NTC and can dictate where he wants to go. His salary ($4.5m), even prorated may be a little rich for some teams tight against the cap, but he’s on an expiring contract and so he’d be a pure rental.
Andy Greene is another interesting case. He had a breakout season last year, and while failing miserably to match it this season, he’s come a lot closer since Lemaire has taken over–showing just how deeply MacLean affected every facet of the team. Greene is capable of playing over 20 minutes against tough competition, and is probably best served on a 2nd pairing. He’s got a good shot and puck movement, but the kicker is his salary ($737k) and expiring contract. He might be a good fit for a team looking for another offensive defenseman or some defensive depth.
And then there’s David Clarkson; a gritty power forward who has the potential and shows flashes but never seems to put it all together. He’s signed for the next 2 years with a $2.6m cap hit, which may scare some teams away, but there may be a GM out there who thinks he can get more out of him. He’s got the potential to be a top 6 forward, but right now he’s playing on the Devils’ fourth line and is clearly falling down the pecking order as younger forwards make their case to be in the top 9 next year.
And, can I interest anyone in a resurgent Brian Rolston?!
Everyone in Ottawa has been hoping they could flip a prospect to get Zach Parise as a restricted free agent, since conventional wisdom said that there was NO WAY (where have I heard that before…:rolleyes:) that the Devils could afford him and Kovy and stay under the cap. While it would be nice to get Spezza a legit winger again, those rumors swirled when we were in 9th and the Devils were in 12th…
Long term, I wonder what the Devils are going to do without Jacques “Admiral Ackbar” Lemaire. They showed just how bad they are without him this year!
Heh, a lot of people in a lot of places have been hoping for that, but unless a team is willing to drop 4 first rounders or so on him by signing him to an offer sheet big enough that the Devils wouldn’t match it, then he’s not going anywhere just yet.
If he wants out he can force the team’s hand in a year or two, but as an RFA he doesn’t have any leverage and isn’t going anywhere, despite “conventional wisdom” that always seems to ignore that some teams have far more money tied up in 2 or 3 players than the Devils would in Kovalchuk and Parise and seem to get by just fine.
Dunno, that’s the big question right now. He’s flat out said he’s not coming back, but then he’s later been noncommittal about it either way… so who knows?
Regardless, Lemaire is only partially responsible for the turnaround, and they’ve shown they can be successful under other coaches and styles (like Sutter)… so it’s more that we’ve seen just how bad a coach MacLean was.
