Nice cafeteria. Be a shame of you can't use it. Remember DACA!

[Rick_Kitchen]

@Bricker

From the actions of United We Dream:

Yeah!! Those illegal immigrants have the RIGHT to favorable legislation, and don’t you forget it.

Or else.

Now, to me, this seems like a poor approach for the subject matter and the intended audience, since some of the intended audience might accidentally remember that the illegal immigrants actually don’t have the legal right to remain in the country, and thus any protest that sends a demanding message to the contrary is adopting a poor choice of tone.

But maybe that’s why I’m not a Democrat.

In MY Dreams, the Democrats orchestrate a government shutdown to hold out for DACA. I think that sends an excellent electoral message for 2018.

Merry Christmas.

[China_Guy]

@HurricaneDitka

Most Republicans are doing what they believe is best for the citizens of this country too.

Color me skeptical. At least the decision makers/power brokers are doing their best to support the donors and 1%, whilst throwing scraps out to the rest.

[Kyomara]

@HurricaneDitka

Most Republicans are doing what they believe is best for the citizens of this country too.

Yes, but they pick and choose who they count as deserving “citizens.” Their rhetoric has increasingly been about sticking it to those who they feel are not “real Americans” like their base. That’s where the lack of compassion lies.

Who knows whether they mean it? But it gets them votes so they can pass laws benefitting rich people. It’s terribly cynical.

[Kyomara]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

Your “Dreams” are not only morally reprehensible but are also fiscally ill-conceived and pragmatically senseless.

The individuals covered under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) policy are people who came into the United States either by illegal entry or ovdrstaying a visa before or on their 16th birthday; most were brought here as children and have grown up in American culture, and many are practically and culturally fluent only in English. To be covered they must be in school or have graduated high school, or enlisted in the military or honorably discharged, and not convicted of a felony, serious misdemeanor, or pose a known threat to national security. They are not ellagible for federal benefits or student aid, but may obtain a work permit and pay payroll taxes.

Despite the oft-reported claim that the order setting the policy by then-President Obama was an abuse of executive power, the discretionary enforcement of immigration law by executive decree is explicit under Article II of the constitution and has a precident going back to at least to Reagan and GHW Bush of selective enforcement and tacit permission in absence of rapid legislative action. Policy direction to executive departments and agencies is within the purview of the Oval Office provided those directives are consistent with the Constitution and prior case law, which DACA is and Trump’s “immigration [don’t call it a Muslim] ban” was not.

Deportation has a cost to the tune of an average of more than $10k per adult deportee (significantly more in the case of minors) while gainfully employed “Dreamers” are a net benefit to the economy. In fact, despite a tiny minority of offenders, immigration is a net economic benefit and provides a pool or workers willing to perform jobs that most natural born American citizens feel are beneath them or provide insufficient wages. There is no economic case for mass deportation, much less that of individuals the government has already spent money to educate and in the case of adults have already provided economic benefit. “Dreamers” who have committed serious crimes or are not gainfully employed can have their status removed and deported just as any other illegal imigrant.

Until the recent hate-filled campaign against people seeking to come to the United States to better their employment opportunities and lives and, when faced with the byzantine and obstructive immigration policy opted for the expedient route of illegal entry, it was widely recognized that immigration is a net positive for the economic health and growth of the nation as it has been since the nation was founded. And as Chronos observes, the DACA policy is supported by majorities on both sides of the aisle. Eliminating DACA is pandering to a minority of insecure people with misdirected anger and political interests seeking to control immigration to their own ends including protecting the influx of cheap foreign goods from competition within the United States. Disestablishing the policy and deporting previously protected individuals, many of whom have little in the ways of families or opportunities in the “home” countries many of them barely remember is not only cruel but also obtuse. It provides no benefit at a cost of tens of millions of dollars and occupying ICE efforts in doing something other than tracking and removing immigrants which might actual pose some significant harm.

In any case, the Democrats do not have enough political power in the legislature to effectively shutdown or significantly slow the political process, which your apparently favored conservative Republicans are doing nicely on their own through infighting and incompetence, and their President who undermines legislative efforts to suppoert his attempts to proclaim vast overarching executive orders which dwarf the decried presidential decrees from the previous administration in scope and presumed authority.

But yes, let us eject the people brought here by their parents as minor children, educated in American schools, who are gainfully employed or serving in the military, who pay taxes without receiving financial benefits accorded to citizens, at significant cost and resources which could be put to efforts more beneficial to the country, all to satisfy some principle about the right and wrong way to immigrate. Because that what this nation is about: officious bureaucracy and politics based upon a manufactured and manipulated cultural identity rather than pragmatic policy.

Stranger

Bricked just got his ass handed to him. Not that he’ll ever admit it.

[D_Anconia]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

In any case, the Democrats do not have enough political power in the legislature to effectively shutdown or significantly slow the political process

Hmm, I wonder why that might be.

[VinylTurnip]

@John_Mace

The new slogan is: You’ve got to be cruel to be kind. But, in the right measure!

I’d have gone with “All men are liars.”

[Bricker]

@John_Mace

They’re calling for legislation, which I agree with, even if I disagree with their tactics.

I have no gripe with “calling for,” legislation.

But their tactics are fairly described as “demanding,” legislation, or else.

And that’s what I’m criticizing. They want rights the law doesn’t provide; the more palatable approach would, it seems to me, to not DEMAND.

[Bricker]

@Bricker

In MY Dreams, the Democrats orchestrate a government shutdown to hold out for DACA. I think that sends an excellent electoral message for 2018.

@Stranger_On_A_Train

Your “Dreams” are not only morally reprehensible but are also fiscally ill-conceived and pragmatically senseless.

It would be morally reprehensible for the Democrats to orchestrate a government shutdown to hold out for DACA?

[John_Mace]

@HurricaneDitka

Most Republicans are doing what they believe is best for the citizens of this country too.

@China_Guy

Color me skeptical. At least the decision makers/power brokers are doing their best to support the donors and 1%, whilst throwing scraps out to the rest.

I hate to broad brush about all legislation, but this does seem to be true of the latest Tax Bill.

As for DACA, I think it’s possible to take a principled stand against such action, so I’d hesitate to throw Congresscritters under the bus if they do oppose it. Trump, OTOH, doesn’t have a principled bone in his body, so under the bus he goes!

[Chronos]

Quoth HurricaneDitka:

Most Republicans are doing what they believe is best for the citizens of this country too.

There are still a few of them-- I think Kasich falls into that category, for instance. And I’m pretty sure that George W. Bush did, too, except that he was so incompetent that he let himself be manipulated by those who didn’t. But most of them, at least the ones in positions of power, have made no secret of the fact that they don’t care about most of the country.

[bobot]

Nothing quite says “Christmas Eve” like an expression of ill will towards innocent children. Some of you nutty Americans make me so proud sometimes!
wipes away tear

[running_coach]

@bobot

Nothing quite says “Christmas Eve” like an expression of ill will towards innocent children. Some of you nutty Americans make me so proud sometimes!
wipes away tear

There’s nothing as much fun as a defenseless victim.

[marshmallow]

@asahi

Great post, Stranger.

Someday we’ll be standing in line for the camps and some liberal with a chart will point out that the Republicans are irrational because gassing minorities is economically inefficient and actually lowers the GDP.

[steronz]

@Bricker

It would be morally reprehensible for the Democrats to orchestrate a government shutdown to hold out for DACA?

Your dream, as you quoted, isn’t just that Democrats orchestrate a government shutdown to hold out for DACA, right? It’s that they orchestrate a government shutdown to hold out for DACA and then get punished politically for it in the next election. Your dream, in essence, is that Democrats get punished for doing the right thing because you don’t like their tactics. How you think this is the moral high ground is beyond me.

[Procrustus]

@Bricker

I have no gripe with “calling for,” legislation.

But their tactics are fairly described as “demanding,” legislation, or else.

And that’s what I’m criticizing. They want rights the law doesn’t provide; the more palatable approach would, it seems to me, to not DEMAND.

It’s just an expression. They are just lobbying, but without the bribes.

[John_Mace]

@Bricker

I have no gripe with “calling for,” legislation.

But their tactics are fairly described as “demanding,” legislation, or else.

OK

And that’s what I’m criticizing. They want rights the law doesn’t provide; the more palatable approach would, it seems to me, to not DEMAND.

They’re not demanding “rights”. We’re trying to be fair and accurate, no? They’re not trying to get an amendment passed or taking this to the SCOTUS. They’re making a demand of the legislative process.

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@Bricker

It would be morally reprehensible for the Democrats to orchestrate a government shutdown to hold out for DACA?

So now you want to play the semantic gambit and pretend that the intent of your post was not clearly what everyone else in this thread has clearly understood it to be? Then I guess the question really boils down to whether you are an insufferable pococurante or a contriving troll. Your choice.

@marshmallow

Someday we’ll be standing in line for the camps and some liberal with a chart will point out that the Republicans are irrational because gassing minorities is economically inefficient and actually lowers the GDP.

It is clear that the ideologically-driven neoconservative wing that has taken control over a once principled and more pragmatic Republican party has no regard for moral conduct despite declaring themselves as the protectors of virtue—a “branding” exercise originally championed by that most inveterate of hypocrites, Newt Gingrich—but we might at least apply the claim of being the party of fiscal responsibility to this issue with an unprejudiced eye, and on that metric, they fail badly. There is no fiscal gain, direct or indirect, in pursuing the elimination of DACA, nor does it make the nation more secure or competitive, and comes at substantial cost as well as further diminshing our reputation of a country that makes just, rationale choices.

Stranger

[Miller]

@Bricker

I have no gripe with “calling for,” legislation.

But their tactics are fairly described as “demanding,” legislation, or else.

And that’s what I’m criticizing. They want rights the law doesn’t provide; the more palatable approach would, it seems to me, to not DEMAND.

Do you feel similarly about other groups who felt they should have rights the law didn’t allow them? Did Rosa Parks similarly err in demanding rights?

[bobot]

I think that’s where this comes in again:

@running_coach

There’s nothing as much fun as a defenseless victim.

ETA: Response to post #37

[Bone]

@Kyomara

Bricked just got his ass handed to him. Not that he’ll ever admit it.

Knock it off. If you feel the need to chime in like a peanut gallery and make content free snipes directed at other posters, the Pit is right around the corner.

[/moderating]