No beer before noon on Sundays..

In My Humble Opinion
1

I went to Winn Dixie this morning as we are having some friends over later. I checked out at 11:52 a.m. and was told that Florida law prohibits alcohol sales before noon on Sundays and that I would have to wait.

The clerk was very nice. Actually rang up the beer and I paid, but waited the eight minutes before being allowed to hold the beer and take it out the door.

But it got me wondering, how in the world do these laws survive constitutional muster? In a day and time where students can’t pray before football games and the Pledge of Allegiance and the Ten Commandments being challenged, what rational basis could the state have for curtailing booze sales on Sunday mornings?

2

It’s Constitutional apparently. In the town I live in you can’t buy beer at all on Sundays. Or Mondays, Tuesdays and Thursdays for that matter. Granting of licenses and the conditions of the alcohol license are apparently up to the granter of the license.

SSG Schwartz

3

What constitution are you reading? I see no mention of a right to sell beer on sunday…or at all for that matter. In fact liquor was absolutely prohibited for a while. Many jurisdictions are dry in that they prohibit alcohol sales every day of the week. Prohibiting it on Sunday is not that uncommon.

4

I can’t speak for jtgain of course, but I’m guessing he is implying that alcohol bans such as the one in the OP are religion-based. i.e., Christians go to church on Sundays, usually in the morning. Beer is not allowed to be sold during ‘church hours’. Thus, the ban appears to be an imposition of Christian religion upon people who may or may not be Christian. As the establishment of religion is banned by the First Amendment, and this seems to be a law founded in religion, then it violates the Establishment prohibition.

The 18th Amendment arguably could be said to be the imposition of the mores of one religion on the entire populace; but it could also bee seen as a public health and safety issue.

5

Well, I can understand outlawing booze , but ONLY on Sunday mornings? What possible reason could there be for that other than a religious one?

I mean, why not Wednesday afternoon from noon to six for no booze?

ETA…or what the guy above me said :slight_smile:

6

While such “Blue Laws” may have had a (questionable) religious rationale to begin with, they’re now just institutionalized regulations. Unless you can make some kind of First Amendment challenge (“I address the Justices to note that my religious believe requires the consumption of mead on Sunday mornings to appease the Invisible Pink Unicorn/Great Cthulhu/Bob Who Art In Heaven…”) the Constitution–which curiously neglects to say anything in regard to the production or consumption of alcoholic beverages and spirits–doesn’t enter into it except as regulated via the Interstate Commerce Clause (Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 of the Constitution). The Federal government did once ifamously try to impose regulation and taxation on distilled spirits with less-than-stellar results (the Whiskey Rebellion), albeit establishing Federal authority as the ultimate arbitrator of law and order in the United States, but the Supreme Court, Congress, and the BATFE don’t really care what states do locally as long as the Feds get their cut of the taxes.

Stranger

7

You have to address the issue with the city council and make them realize it’s an important enough issue to discuss and vote on. I also find it odd that I can enter a grocery store at 11:45am, shop for 14 minutes, and if I just spend an extra minute browsing the bakery aisle before hitting the register they can ring up the wine in my cart. But if I get to the register at 11:58a…no can do.

Silly, when you think about it, but until someone makes a fuss…

8

Back in the seventies people tried to claim that things like LSD and peyote were required by their religion. The SCOTUS never had a problem with laws prohibiting them. Hell ,Rastafarianism includes pot but you don’t see Rasta’s with get out of jail free cards.

If someone was dumb enough to write a law that says “Out of respect for christian values, the sale of alcohol is prohibited on Sunday” they might have a problem. But the Courts are reluctant to look behind facially neutral statutes. “No alcohol on X Day” is facially neutral and you have to make assumptions to tie it to religious values. I have no doubt that it is tied to religious values but the courts traditionally do not base decisions on assumptions about the motivation. This would be different if a facially neutral statute had a discriminatory effect on a protected class. Neither beer drinkers nor beer sellers are a protected class.

9

I’m usually socially conservative. I think religion is generally a good thing for society. In fact, I think prayer in school could serve a positive influence. But I’m not arguing for these things. I could argue a rational basis for all of these.

What I am talking about is these particular types of laws which, for the life of me, I couldn’t think of a non-religious reason for.

Laws against LSD, marijuana, or even total prohibition of alcohol could be said to be for other public good. But to only prohibit alcohol sales on Sunday morning, when Christians go to church, can be secularly justified…how?

10

See Braunfield v. Brown 366 U.S. 599 (1961) and McGowan v. Maryland 366 U.S. 420. Not that I agree with the reasoning but it is the reasoning used. The state absolutely can regulate alcohol sale, just because you (correctly) assume that sunday laws are based on religious values does not invalidate the laws as they apply to all people neutrally if a law said only christians were prohibited it would be a different story. The state has the power to regulate and no constitutionally protected interest is being violated.

11

McGowan…did you read Earl Warren’s reasoning? What a bunch of absolute fucking garbage. If he had written that about sodomy, abortion, or anything else like that he would have been written off. He takes the best part of the “Sunday closed” and compares it to the worst part of “Sunday open” in every comparison.

Does anyone here think it is a legitimate state interest to sell tobacco on Sunday but not three ring binders? Or for one county in the state to be allowed to sell things but not others?

12

This no booze sunday morning business has bothered me forever…even back when I drank ZERO…

So the law is okay because the christian/religious majority has passed a law the prevents EVERYONE from doing what THEY don’t want to do (supposedly)…thats some twisted logic if you ask me…

My beef is half principled…half pragmatic…

IMHO laws should do at least one of two things…

one…protect some constitutional right or some basic principle…for example a pro abortion law OR an anti abortion law can at least in theory be based on the fundamental principle of right to life OR the fundament principle of the right to control ones own body…

or two…for the “GOOD” of society (assuming it doesnt drastically violate a fundament right)…like building codes say…

But if its reason two, then the law should have one and preferably two points to it…some LOGICAL reason for it in the first place…and hopefully some darn real world evidence that it accomplishes the task of societal good…

So, whats the basis for no booze on Sunday? to cause folks to lay off the booze after a Sat night bing?..well lots of folks bing on Friday nights as well…show me evidence that Sunday mornings are significantly more of a problem than Saturday mornings then I’ll buy it…

Or make it no booze on Sat mornings, Sunday mornings , holiday mornings…heck go whole hog and make it available only between noon and 9 pm anyday for reasons of social good…and I could “believe” in that…

Shoot, I’ll even support the idea of a dry county or state or nation if thats what floats their boat and they think its a net good for society…

But this Sunday morning thing is just uptight religious folks uncomfortable with idea that heathens are out buying booze while they endure the latest sermon from the mount…

It has always amazed me that the Supreme court has let this fly as long as it has…

And while I ranting…its a three times retarded law…it isnt for any social good…it pushes one persons religious belief on others…and it doesnt even work well…the professional boozers stock up Sunday morning…it only catches folks like our beach tourists here who get caught unawares by this absurd law as they are buying picnic supplies for their day at the beach…

It seems to me to be almost an American right to question a law that you don’t like and impacts you in some measurable way…and if the powers that be can’t come up with something other reason than “just because”…toss the law…

Now dont get me wrong…I am not that “anti religious”…prayer in school, ten commandments in the court house…pledges, oaths, nativity scenes…I can live with these things…but this? grrrrrr

Bill Fish

13

jtgain, I could have sworn those alcohol blue laws were recently repealed in this area. Maybe that was Broward county and not Palm Beach? Or is it a city-based thing, and it was repealed in Boca Raton and not Delray? I could have sworn I saw signs in a Boca supermarket about being allowed to sell beer and wine Sunday mornings.

14

This was Winn Dixie in western Delray Beach. I’m not sure if it is located in the city limits or is under the jurisdiction of Palm Beach County.

It is rare that I have a drink or have people over for a gathering, so I don’t believe that I have had occassion to purchase booze before noon on Sunday in recent years (before today). My experience in my younger days at the beach in South Carolina was no beer ALL DAY Sunday which required some foresight on Saturday night.

All I know is that the cashier rang up the beer and pointed to the 11:52 time on the register and said that she was very sorry, but that I would have to wait 8 minutes before walking out the door with the beer.

15

This is what I object to about the law. There is no rational basis for it. Can anyone possibly think of a secular reason for the law?

I know that Warren talked about a secular day of rest in the above cited case, but this doesn’t even apply here. These cashiers are still working in the grocery store ringing up food and soft drinks. It takes as much energy to ring up a beer purchase as it does a food purchase.

And it obviously isn’t about drinking on Sunday morning because there is nothing prohibiting anyone from buying twice the amount on Saturday night and drinking all morning Sunday.

16

Colorado has a no sunday sales of anything above 3.2% law. I talked to a few of the corner store type owners and they love the law. They universally say they would fight like hell to stop it from changing. And making a few asumptions since so many of them are Indian, Korean, and Arabic the Sabbath has nothing to do with it. They are family owned, and pretty much either the Husband or wife was to be on site every open hour, because of employee theft, or finable negligence. They figure most people who drink just learn to prepare, so they sell 7 days worth in 6 days. So they finally get a day off. And as long as everybody is closed, they don’t lose any business. Now as far a grocery stores, and super-warehouse stores that are open all the time anyway, I’m not sure why they havn’t tried to change it, but I have never heard of any effort. I guess they are happy enough will selling 6 days and just decided its not worth the hassle to try.

17

New York laws are just as retarded. No sales from 12 am to 12 pm, and from 9 pm to midnight on Sundays.

Nothing non-alcoholic can be sold except water and alcohol accessories (e.g. shakers and bottle openers.)

You can sell mixers with 1% alcohol in them, but you can’t sell beer.

18

I’m glad you posted this.

I just found out this was the law in Michigan last Sunday. I went to a local store to buy some beer and was told, “No, it’s not noon yet.”

I’m 30 and I have never heard this. To be fair, I never have tried to buy alcohol on Sunday morning before; it was just the time I was available this time.

I didn’t get it. I asked the clerk and she said, “It’s always been this way.”

Do any other countries have this?

19

Blue laws are incredibly stupid and shortsighted, a remnant of Prohibition thinking, a way for local governments to try to rule our lives.
Take the fine state of Indiana where I live as a perfect example.

Not only can you not buy beer on a Sunday before noon, you can’t buy it AT ALL on a Sunday. The kicker is that you CAN buy it at a bar, or liquour if you prefer, provided that the bar sells a certain percentage of food against it’s liquor sales in order to obtain a “Sunday License” (read: tax revenue).

It’s complete bullshit. So, I can drive my ass to a bar on a Sunday and get fucking shitfaced, then drive home, risking a DUI, but I can’t buy beer from a retail store on Sunday and drink it at home, where getting shitfaced is a far safer option. Thanks Indiana!

Furthermore, in Indiana, the beer sold in grocery stores is WARM. I suppose the geniuses that passed this law thought that someone that was desperate enough to get their drink on wouldn’t drink warm beer. And this is every day of the week!

If you want cold beer in Indiana, you have to buy it from a liquor store, where (you guessed it!) beer is FAR more expensive than the warm shit you can buy from a grocery store.

I’m sure grocery store owners are thankful for the reduced costs associated with selling warm beer (“Just stack it in a pile over there”) as opposed to refrigerating it, but…c’mon!

These laws make ZERO sense. So I live in a dry county, but you make me needlessly drive to county X to stock up on booze. Sweet!

And what about states like Kentucky, where, like the OP states, you can’t buy beer until noon on a Sunday?

Well shitfire boys, not only can you not buy beer until noon, you also cannot buy wine or liquour in Kentucky on a Sunday! Because everyone knows that this law is preventing people from getting drunk on a Sunday becasue it limits their options!
:rolleyes:

This is indeed a leftover religious bullshit law that needs repealing across the country. How hypocritical is it that I cannot buy beer on a Sunday in Indiana, warm as it is, chill it and drink it at home, but yet I can DRIVE (you know, that DUI thingie) to a bar and do as many shots of whatever liquour I please and then DRIVE home?

Makes sense to me.

It’s bullshit. Thank God I live just across the state line between Ohio and Indiana where conveniently placed drive thrus on the Ohio side will sell me my drugs on a Sunday.

As we all know, drive-thrus are just the thing for the drunk on the go.

20

Texas has similar blue laws.

No beer or wine sales before noon on Sundays.

No liquor stores are open on Sundays by law.

And if you go to a bar on Sundays you can’t drink til noon unless you order food.

Liquor stores must close by 9 p.m. every day.

Beer and wine sales outside of bars must cease at midnight every day.

I find it all a bit bizarre, but since I bartend, I kinda like not having to work til twelve noon on Sundays.

I think it would be hard to rally enough people together to get these laws changed.