No common ground left to stand on?

Great Debates
61

Think of it like this:

There are two brothers, John and Bill. Their dad is dead. Recently, Mom has been getting sick. Real sick. John thinks she has cancer.

Bill, on the other hand, refuses to accept that. Anytime you even mention that his mom’s not looking too good he’ll cut you off before you can even imply that there might be something seriously wrong and he’ll start preaching Jesus to you and telling you how God is caring for us all and he puts people through trials every once in a while but they get through it, cause they have a connection to the Spirit.

Now, let’s say that John is non-confrontational. He tries to talk to Bill but, as said, he just gets a bunch of nonsense from him. And, sure, he can just decide that it’s more important that Bill is able to live in his little fantasy and deny what’s happening all the way until Mom’s in the ground. And if he does that then, well, that’s what’s going to happen.

Alternately, John can say, "Hey look, you see this trail of blood across the bathroom floor? You know where that came from? Mom’s asshole. See those smears over there? That’s where she collapsed in her blood, after crapping.

“God’s testing her? Fuck that, you delusional ass. Your fucking mother is dying and you need to get your shit together and face reality. Now, shut the fuck up and call 911.”

Ultimately, there are times and places to be nice, to be non-confrontatiinal, and allow people to live in their little fantasy worlds.

But there are times where you have to slap some sense into them. It’s not pleasant, but it’s just what you have to do.

62

Well, it’s bundled together in a basic miscommunication that I suspect is at the disconnect concerning the OP. You see your positions as objectively correct, and the opposing position as objectively incorrect, so you see the other sides argument as being disingenuous. You see your position as you arguing that gravity exists with someone who knows things fall down but insist that there is no gravity. So, in your mind, there isn’t any common ground because you are of course correct and they are lying/deceitful/or cluelessly ignorant. Your example of immigration policy really illustrates this, if your other two examples didn’t.

So, yes…I do see your point, or the point you think you are making. I just see it differently. At any rate, I’m not manson1972…I gave my own perspective on what ‘don’t care’ actually means in real world terms, and why people are prickly about some things but not others. It’s about Gores and oxes and partisan tribal bullshit as well as just simply what people are concerned with…or aren’t concerned with and are willing to let slide. This goes for everyone…everyone is going to dig in their heels on some things, but let others slide, especially depending on whether their side is doing it or the other is. It really is a universal ‘both sides do it’ kind of thing. Not only do both of your ridiculous sides (plus all of your sub-sides :p) do it, but I do it too.

63

I appreciate your insight. Do you see my OP and associated arguments as having misinterpreted or mis-stated the opposing view positions on matters of fact, i.e. gravity, etc.?

No need to remind me that opposing sides view things through a different lens. I don’t deny that there may be multiple ways to resolve a challenging problem. But we must first correctly define the problem. i.e. Common ground. My hypothetical cardiologist and I can’t both be right about the state of my health as a result of my Keto-diet.

64

??? It’s hardly the left’s fault that capitalism is gonna capitalize in a typically soul-crushingly capitalist way. I think you’ll find ardent anti-capitalists aren’t in Mr. Trump’s party :D.

As it stands, capital only gives you the choice to either work as hard as a Chinese sweatshop slave on a bowl of rice a day (which is basically impossible as your living costs & industry safety costs are much higher) ; or find a new job. There’s no third choice, and anybody telling you different is a huckster on some kind of grift.

At least the left cares enough about the situation you’re in to try and give you a hand. Not a handout, a hand - you’re supposed to use that help to keep on living while you figure your shit out, get into some training, get some degree, make movies, whatevs. The stereotypical image of rural US culture is one of tight knit communities where people help each other all the time, give each other lifts and so on because it’s hard out there for everybody etc… ; why does it become shameful when it’s the government trying to help ?
And when has the right ever helped you ? Did Dubya make the coal mines come back ? His Daddy ? Reagan ? And Trump isn’t either - his biggest coal baron supporter declared bankruptcy recently. Coal’s not coming back, period.
Nor should it really, because it’s global warmy as fuck, but that’s a different story.

The US prison population per capita is the highest in the world (except for maybe China, can’t really know since they cook their books). If throwing more people into more jails for longer worked, you’d know it by now. Prison isn’t the solution to crime, addressing the structural problems that *lead *people to crime is. Throwing someone in jail is an admission of failure.

Again, how is the whole “immigrants taking our jobzzz” thing on the left ? The people who hire undocumented immigrants to quietly work for shit pay in shit conditions typically aren’t Bernie bros… And it’s not like immigrants have it *any *easier, or less painful, than you guys.

65

And is it your opinion or experience in your daily life that you’re *less *likely to be called a racist when you wear a MAGA hat ? :dubious:
This is one Trumpist argument I seriously don’t get. “We’re tired of liberals calling us a bunch of racist hicks so we elected the most incoherent, uneducated racist of the whole bunch, that’ll learn 'em !” :confused:

66

Facts are facts. I have no problem busting someone over the head with facts. The issue is when you move from things that are factually incontrovertible (gravity is real) to something that is more about policy or opinion based, yet thinking that your policy opinion IS basically factual and the only way to look at it, therefore the other side is just disingenuous, lying or stupidly clueless. The common ground would be starting with what is, in fact, incontrovertible fact and then discussing various ways to address that, or even if it needs to or can realistically BE addressed. Your comment about the no-brainer nature of ‘universal healthcare’ being universal simply because it’s in the name, therefore anyone who doesn’t see it that way is just wrong, for instance.

There are levels here. For one thing, I think that the fact that Trump lies IS an incontrovertible fact, so anyone denying that is wrong (depending of course on which lies we are talking about at any given time). Saying ‘I don’t care’ about some lies he’s told is a different matter, because, again, it’s going to depend on who’s ox is being gored as well as just partisan tribalism. For some things, I can see why people who know he is lying don’t care, because the result is what they want…this is, essentially, how our political system works. We KNOW that politicians lie, or at least distort the truth, yet if the means justifies the ends (and if it’s our side doing it, for the greater good of course) we are ok with that usually.

For my part, there are things Trump does that doesn’t rise to the same level of outrage as others, or, basically, that I don’t care about. His acting like a mafia boss wrt the Ukraine is, to me, less of an issue than his betrayal, for absolutely stupid and clueless reasons, of the Kurds in Syria and the damage (the FURTHER damage) he’s done to US foreign policy, is MUCH more a reason why he should be impeached and gotten out of there. I know it is not an actual, actionable reason, while his acting like a mob boss might be (I hope IS), but my outrage meter is a lot higher on his idiotic actions in Syria than his trying to leverage someone in the Ukraine. I realize that MMV on that, as on many things, however.

67

Just sitting here in the cheap seats I see you trying to argue what are ultimately more emotive points and feelings with logic. Arguing in a way that I suspect many Trump voters would feel is both patronizing and paternalistic.

Many if not most voters don’t carefully reason their way into a political stance. They filter it through their tribal affiliations and feelings and back engineer arguments to arrive at the result they wanted in the first place. Lecturing them as to why they are wrong comes off as snide and condescending. It really doesn’t matter if you think you have the more rational argument. People aren’t going to listen.

As has been said many times, political junkies arguing on the SDMB, 538 or similar boards/discussion groups/comment sections full of engaged intellectuals and pseudo-intellectuals is not the real world. By and large the electorate as a whole doesn’t engage that way- it’s why rah-rah stuff that personally makes me roll my eyes works so well. For most people facts are certainly useful, but you must engage on an empathic level first. If you can’t empathize with an evangelical social conservative first, you will never change their mind no matter how many facts you have at your command about how much worse Trump is as a Christian human being .

68

I meant to come back and explore this a little deeper.

Honest question: What type of racism have white Americans suffered from in recent decades?

Additionally: What is the implied need to maintain the purity and standing of the “white race” as an identity if not white supremacism?

In a time where a simple OTC genetic test will tell you everything you may not want to know about the “purity” of your race, it seems absurd to place so much importance on the tone of one’s skin.

69

I hope that I’ve come across as trying to do so in this thread to a handful of the Trump supporters that have responded.

I try to pace my outrage through the days as well. Some days I simply avoid it altogether.

Despite Capone’s long criminal resume including: gambling, prostitution, bootlegging, bribery, narcotics trafficking, robbery, “protection” rackets, and murder, he was convicted of tax evasion and sentenced to 11 years.

I’d love to see Trump jailed for being a lifelong asshole. But I’ll settle for impeachment for bribery and extortion of a foreign government.

70

I support universal healthcare but I dont think it will work with our current immigration problems. Yes, I’m against companies that employ illegals but I’m also the policies of “sanctuary cities” where illegals immigration authorities cannot go after illegals even if they have committed crimes. All of those “sanctuary cities” are run by democrats.

BTW, I say “open borders” because thats basically what current’immigration reforms" propose even though they are afraid to call it that. They basically say if someone is caught being here illegally, they will NOT be sent back. If the border patrol catches someone who just jumped the fence, they dont want them sent back but instead, processed and given a court date and sent on their way. And again, with democrat controlled “sanctuary cities” even those committing crimes wont be sent back. Basically “open borders”. Also all someone has to do is show up at the border with a child and they get a free pass.

Our immigration SHOULD discourage people from coming here and jumping the border illegally. But democrats want to end that.

Now you say you want discussion. I welcome that. But dont call me KKK or racist crap because I’m against open borders.

We cannot have all these dream programs like universal healthcare with open borders.

71

I don’t understand your objection here, and I suspect you might have an erroneous notion of what “sanctuary city” policies involve. There’s nothing in sanctuary-city policies that says undocumented immigrants (“illegals”) can’t be charged with and punished for committing crimes. It’s just that they don’t allow immigration authorities to continue detaining an undocumented immigrant after they’ve served their sentence for the crime they’ve committed.

72

I don’t even get to that stage. What category do you hate?

73

If you don’t mind, could you explain what damage to US foreign policy you think he’s done, and what demonstrative harm it has done to the US as a whole?

74

How much will these alternative fuels cost per mile driven per kilowatt produced if consumed at scale? How the heck do you get it to scale?

Right now the world gets 80% of its energy from fossil fuels.

We would have to build several nuclear power plants every week starting today in order to get that down to 20% by the year 2050. We can ramp up solar power but in order to meet the energy demand for america, we would need a solar panel the size of connecticutt. How much would a connecticutt sized solar panel cost? More importantly, how much would the battery for that solar panel cost?

Doing any of this on a timeline that would make any sort of difference in global warming would disrupt our economy.

These are all ways that poor whites have lost jobs to others.

Pennsylvania and Wisconsin used to vote Democrat. Now with Trump, they are voting Republican. Sure the Republicans used to be just as free market as everyone else but that’s not Trump.

Yes I mean different white people. In case you didn’t know, most Trump supporters are white.

Sure she does. She just wants some dignity too.

75

Any nation’s leadership would be batshit insane to believe anything this POTUS says. Fuck allies and alliances; cozy-up up to genocidal dictators; demand bribes. Dubya managed to assemble a large coalition to attack Iraq. Who besides BoJo would lend Tramp any aid in a similar exercise now?

Kim laughs heartily.

76

Affirmative action?

Who said anything about purity or even standing? They just want to live an american lifestyle with third world skillsets. And because they were born here, they are in a position to elect people that will try and get it for them.

They’re not the ones placing importance on race.

77

I’m against open borders as well. I’m for a comprehensive review and improvement of US immigration policies. I don’t quite know what to make of that article you linked to but I don’t want to debate point made by someone who blogs for a living. Especially since he’s talking about a single candidate and not an official DNC immigration platform. It’s my sense that the next Democratic administration will closely follow the immigration policies of the previous Democratic administration. Which, IMO, worked.

But I believe what you’re getting at is the fact that Democrats talk about decriminalizing illegal border crossing. I think the misunderstanding and assumption lies in that it will be “legal” to cross the border illegally. It won’t. It will remain a crime, though a civil one. People apprehended doing so will still be subject to deportation. That said, there is more to stemming the flow of illegal immigration than simply putting up a wall, separating children from parents and creating detention camps. But this is not a thread for solving that issue. It’s just to see if we can agree that illegal immigration is seen as a problem by progressives as well and is to be taken seriously.

As to extending benefits to those already here – it seems to me that they too pay taxes and so would not be getting benefits for free. Because they are already part of the economy, the smart thing to do would be to fully integrate them economically, as legal residents, and eventually citizens. It’s the more sensible thing to do than to have them go into hiding and spending money and resources to find and deport them, losing both the tax revenue and the labor force which is clearly needed.

So, common ground?

78

This seems to be another problem. Reading comprehension or common misunderstandings based upon our own need to ‘defend’.

I made no mention of anything Trump has done that has bettered anything or anyone.
His campaign promises worked in order to get him elected. Plain and simple.

But the economy is doing well, record unemployment and its ALWAYS about the economy. Whether or not that is a Trump thing (it isn’t) isn’t even on the table. President’s always get credit for a good economy and they take the fall in a bad one.

79

The same we we got fossil fuels to scale. Innovation and infrastructure.

We would have to build several nuclear power plants every week starting today in order to get that down to 20% by the year 2050. We can ramp up solar power but in order to meet the energy demand for america, we would need a solar panel the size of connecticutt. How much would a connecticutt sized solar panel cost? More importantly, how much would the battery for that solar panel cost?
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Thing is, we don’t have to relocate everyone in Connecticut to do so. It’s not even that sunny there. We could distribute it and put it on roofs and in various other locations less populated and much more sunny than Connecticut.

Doing any of this on a timeline that would make any sort of difference in global warming would disrupt our economy.
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This is not the thread for a deep dive on the economics of renewable energy. More qualified people can rebut and address your concerns elsewhere. But, wouldn’t it be great if we got ahead of the world and developed new technologies to lead the world into a future that depends on renewable energy instead of fossil fuels? Seems to me, US economy would benefit greatly from that sort of initiative instead of focusing on what the rest of the world currently does.

I’ve watched people striking at the GM plant. Plenty of people of color are also at risk of losing their jobs due to a changing economy. Yet, you are only talking about whites losing their jobs and subsequently turning to Trump for help. Why is that?

Yet, Trump gets the vote. Why?

I’m well aware. Why do you think that is?

And I want to provide that to her and every person in America. The dignity of not having to worry about affordable healthcare. The dignity of not going into financial ruin over a health scare or chronic illness requiring expensive medication. The dignity of affordable education. The dignity of retraining, retooling and rebuilding a 21st century infrastructure. The dignity of drinking clean water, breathing clean air, caring for the environment which sustains our lives.

80

Not, ‘defend’; Understand.

Now who is being defensive?

It’s ALWAYS about the economy when there is nothing else good to talk about. And this administration can’t even manage to get that bit right. But that’s a different issue.