Oh, please. Cant you get it? A sanctuary city means ICE and other groups cant deport someone even if they commit a crime. Why the heck should they NOT be sent to immigration authorities and deported after committing a crime?
THIS IS open borders. If ICE raids a plant and picks up some illegals, they arent sent back. They are given passes and allowed to stay here illegally. How is this NOT the same as an open border?
He’s demonstrated to the entire world, in many ways and repeatedly, that the US could no longer be trusted to keep its word. And that demonstration isn’t limited to Donald J. Trump being president - everybody who studies America and its politics knows he’s not a cause but the symptom of a deeper rift and political dysfunction. And since you guys have elected one lying, uneducated, dictator-loving fascist today ; there’s a good chance you might do it again tomorrow. Or find a worse one, even.
To what extent being sidelined from the geopolitical stage materially harms the US or its people is up for debate I suppose ; but the sideline-ing is real.
“Subject to deportation”? How will they be deported?
What criteria is there for deportation? Heck with sanctuary cities even if they commit a crime, they wont let immigration know about them.
Most important, is there an incentive to make them NOT want to come here.
You want to stem the flow of people wanting in, find a way to discourage it.
The ideas floated by democrats DONT DO THAT. They tell them that as long as they get across, they wont be sent back. They at most will be given a court date which can take years and they dont even have to show up.
Again, what is in the plans put forth by democrats to discourage people from wanting to come here illegally?
Short of Nazi-like tactics (i.e. torture and mass murder), there is no discouraging people from wanting to come here. Not when the choices most of these migrants face is a sky-high risk of being murdered, or starving, at home, vs trying to come to the US.
These are just human beings facing utterly desperate circumstances, for the most part. Desperate people will do desperate things. Luckily for us, the vast majority are hardworking people who would make wonderful neighbors and Americans, and thus there is no need to dissuade them. We can just be careful and try and vet the ones who do arrive and do get through, whether legally or otherwise. A good, welcoming, and ordered border. This is a huge country with lots and lots of room, and lots and lots of work to do.
Obama deported something like 40% more illegal immigrants in his first three years in office than Trump has. Your starting point for asking these questions indicates you’re only hearing from right-wing media platforms more interested in attacking Democrats than spreading facts.
It’s all just ‘He said/She said’.
I understand wanting simple answers for complicated problems. I’d like to give you that sense of security and assurance that this can be easily solved if only Democrats would get on board with the deportation and detention and family separation and building great big walls.
I’m not sure it’s possible to convince you of something you don’t want to accept as reality, which is, people will continue to try to enter America by whatever means they have, some of them illegally. Unless you are willing and happy to live in a country behind an iron curtain (like North Korea and former USSR), you are going to have to accept the reality that some illegal entry is unavoidable. One way to address it is through diplomatic and foreign aid efforts in countries where people are fleeing dangerous circumstances. Another way is to grant a larger number of temporary work status visas. Yet another way to address it is to make it easier for qualified applicants to take immigrate.
I do agree with you on the one thing you brought up. If in the course of law enforcement, an individual who has broken the law, has been so charged and convicted, and is found to be an illegal resident, he or she should be identified and made available to ICE for further action, including deportation if that is deemed appropriate. I have no qualms about that. Common ground after all?
No, we are full. Look at all the problems with homelessness in our major cities. Look at our overcrowded roads and schools. Look at the stress on our environment.
Look, if you want 'common ground" on this so I would vote against Trump, you have to prove that the democrat policies will discourage people from trying to come here and will remove those here illegally.
Or else you will have to prove to me that open borders will not be a problem.
These are not problems that can be solved with “America First” policies. You’ve been sold a bill of goods not worth the billing. These are Global problems. We are well past the point in time where we have the luxury to think only about what happens within our borders. It’s time to accept the global reality of climate change and population growth and economies that stop at the nation’s borders.
Read: …and economies that don’t stop at the nations borders.
Well dont forget people got thru the Berlin wall and other parts of the iron curtain because we welcomed them with open arms. The USA continues to welcome legal immigrants.
We just cant take in everyone.
Actually its the new democrats who are pro open borders (especially Harris). Obama did a good job of trying to deport them.
I do agree we need to do all we can to help other countries so their people wont have need to immigrate.
Again, I have no problem with polices that help other countries. For example I’m against the US dumping corn and beans on other countries which hurt their local farmers. I’m ok with other countries enacting tariffs to protect their home markets.
I’m also against “America first”. When we help places like Mexico it helps us.
But we have to secure our borders, persuade illegals to leave, and discourage others from coming here.
This is due to bad policies (restrictions on building housing, insistence on favoring cars rather than mass transit, etc.), not being “full”. The idea that we are “full” is ludicrous. There are countries that are far more densely populated than we are with fewer homeless, better transportation, better environment, etc.
I’m not someone who needs an education on the process of getting out from behind the iron curtain. But I do recall that Western Germany was wringing their hands in concern over the fall of the Berlin Wall and how it was going to deal with such a large influx of East Germans. Seems to have worked out alright so far.
I’m not sure you’ve fully examined the ramifications of denying healthcare, work, public education, driving permits, etc… to 11M illegal immigrants. You wring your hands about the homeless situation and crime. Do you really think it’s a good idea to put an additional 11M people into a desperate situation? Do you have any idea of the kind of social impact that will result in trying to identify, arrest and deport 11M people? What do you imagine our society would look like with a LOE/ICE operation of that scale?
How much? And how long would it take?
I wasn’t suggesting we evict everyone from Connecticut, the panel in question would have to be located somewhere much sunnier like death valley. But I think you knew that. I was just pointing out the scale of the project.
Solar energy has not reached grid parity. The cheapest solar energy available is rooftop solar and the panels provide electricity at grid parity in some parts of the US if you include subsidies and only while the sun is shining.
If you don’t want to rely on subsidies, we have a ways to go. If you want to include the price of energy storage (batteries), we are even further away.
What exactly do you propose we do about solar energy that we are not already doing? We have subsidies, we have solar panels on federal buildings, there is about as much research in this area as we can throw at it. What is it that we aren’t doing with solar energy that you think we should be doing?
Depends on how much it costs. If we break our economy to rush things and end up with the betamax of solar energy, it would suck.
You don’t want to get into the nitty gritty numbers and details but you think that we should bet the economy on it because “it seems to you” that it would be a good idea?
There are certainly people of all races being displaced by by the changing economy. There are certainly working class minorities being displaced by the changing economy, just like there are rich white people being displaced by the changing economy. But the impact is disproportionately on working class white who don’t have the benefit of affirmative action. GM by the way is currently a corporate leader in affirmative action policies.
Did you miss the part about trade wars to combat outsourcing, immigration crack down to combat insourcing?
They feel like he’s doing stuff to help them and they feel like Democrats aren’t.
Like i said, there are three groups of Trump supporters.
White supremacists. These folks are mostly white.
Partisan Republicans. Once again, mostly white.
Principled conservatives. Yet again, mostly white.
Working class whites who feel like Trump is trying to help them out. Working class whites are also mostly.
I don’t think she believes you.
Good. Common ground.
Secure borders and improve the border entry process: agreed. I might even be convinced of some additional physical fortifications in places where that makes sense. Along with other more technologically advanced measures.
Deport criminals that are illegal residence: sure.
Persuade illegals to leave: I’d like to know how you plan on going about it short of taking some very brutal and cruel actions. I say give them a path to legal permanent residence and citizenship. They are here. They are part of the economy and society. Why deport them?
Discourage others from coming here: Well, if their home countries are made safer and more prosperous with American aid, I can think of no better approach. Detentions and family separations - not so much.
The law protects people seeking asylum from violence. Trump is trying to undo that law. So much for “welcoming legal immigrants.”
If you own a Tesla (I don’t), not happening soon enough but mostly I think you can criss-cross the country in an electric vehicle with relatively little fuss. So it’s happening.
I don’t think we’ve reached the apex of solar technology, storage and intelligent grid management. Stay tuned.
Fortunately, the energy industry is not a startup that has to bet all it’s eggs will be safe in that one basket. I trust we’ll avoid being the Betamax of renewable energy. Maybe you know something I don’t. I’m willing to listen and learn.
I may be wrong but I think your information is quite out of date with respect to GM. I did find an article about a 2015 case before the SC where corporations are petitioning the court to allow affirmative action in universities. GM is not on the long list of those companies (bottom of article).
Feelings can be misleading.
I do understand them wanting to believe he would. Has he? It doesn’t appear to be the case. But they don’t appear to want to hear otherwise.
Why would I lie?
So the primary obstacle to universal health care is current immigration policy? In what way?
Ah, so your priority is to support a candidate who promotes zero or negative population growth legislation?
Put it this way - in the whole history of the SDMB, has there ever been a thread even tangentially related to Trump, where liberals did not explain at excruciating length exactly why they oppose Trump?
It is not possible to read GD, IMHO, MPSIMS, or the Pit, without those reasons being made more than abundantly clear.
It doesn’t matter if we are interested or not - “why I oppose Trump” is 24/7/365.
Regards,
Shodan