No connections yet between Al-Qaeda and Iraq, but more with Saudi Arabia & Pakistan?

Maybe you heard of Gerald Posner before: he did write Case Closed where he makes a good case that Oswald was indeed the killer of JFK and that the evidence of any conspiracies are poor.
Taking that into account, I take him more seriously than other authors:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030908-480226,00.html

Besides the possible torture allegations, what I see odd and notorious is:

-That after the confession of Abu Zubaydah, three or more of those Saudi royals mentioned by him, just conveniently died soon after.

-More relevant to today’s news: no connection of Al-Qaeda to Iraq.

-And now, besides Saudi Arabia, we have Pakistan in the 9/11 mix.

As the article implies: “There are top Bush Administration officials who have long taken a hostile view of Saudi behavior regarding terrorism and might want to leak Zubaydah’s claims”. The shameful thing to me is that: “The Bush Administration, writes Posner, decided that "creating an international incident and straining relations with those regional allies when they were critical to the war in Afghanistan and the buildup for possible war with Iraq, was out of the question.” So much for the “if you are not with us…

Now, more than ever, I am getting convinced that we did strike the wrong country (after Afghanistan that is) has the administration ignored these Saudi and Pakistani connections for too long? Or is doing this on purpose?

[sub]As a blogster I like to read (and in this case I did not get a lead to this article from him) uses to say in cases like this: I need a drink. (Even though I don’t drink, things like this can make anyone whish for one))[/sub]

So what’s the discussion? Is the pope a catholic?

What else is new?

Ahem, the question was after your last quote, If you are not dealing with that, then what was your waste of a post for?

Ahem again T. Mehr: don’t misunderstand me: while many in other countries will read that and say: “what else is new?” the sad fact remains many over here are still ignorant of all that, or worse: in denial.

Still, this discussion should be on what to do now with Saudi Arabia or Pakistan (where Osama is, as far as many suspect) and also to check if we have now what I think could be another serious problem: the possible alienation of Administration officials with the official posture of the White House, regarding Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

I know what your question is getting at. And it’s very much worth asking.

As for Pakistan: We just started a discussion with a guy called gouda from India on that in the Terrorism: What is your plan? thread, although it got sort of lost over the weekend.

As for Saudi Arabia: Yes the administration is closing it’s eyes on this issue on purpose. Maybe they’ll change their mind once they have estabilshed a secure stronghold in Iraq granting oil and military bases.

As for theAdministration officials: I don’t get what you mean with this.

As for my remarks: Sorry, I thought I get some guys out there to jump the waggon…

You are welcome to bring gouda here and continue the discussion here.

I am beginning to have the nasty suspicion that Chalabi et all promised too much to the administration, Iraq will be a stronghold, but secure? I think the timeline they were expecting has been delayed, and with it, the time to deal with the Saudi and Pakistani problems, but I think many Americans in the intelligence community are upset, and I think that they are not going to wait any longer to seek some justice for the 9/11 victims, see the next reply:

Well, now I have to say sorry: that was not clear, I was referring to this part of the article:

IMO this paragraph means that several people at the Executive Branch are tired of closing it’s eyes to this, even if it is the WH’s choice.

Sorry GIG, but you’re not getting it. It’s obviously old news that the aims of OBL and Al-Qaeda meet a sympathetic ear throughout the Muslim world. The important thing, however, as said many times, is the educated, middle-class, professional make-up of the 9/11 people told us the game was up and that popular opinion/the bell curve/middle classes had shifted to support the radical agenda. Whenever that happens the game really is over – you cannot win. Ever. Indeed, the only debate within radicalised Islam is regarding controntational tactics or other means.

Further, the actual connections between Al-Qaeda and powers within Pakistan and Saudi are equally well documented – there have been several threads here, at least two in the past month.

You ask “what to do with them” as if you haven’t yet connected ‘action’ with ‘reaction’ – sure the US can bomb either into the stone age but then what, more 9/11’s ? more post-war Iraq’s ? something new and bigger ? To state the blindilgly obvious, there are always consequences to actions; 9/11 showed us those reactions can now happen on continental USA, which is especially a problem if you’re a first-term president looking not to move House (take a look Bush’s sliding popularity, and this with a few dozen body bags)

So, as it stands, Bush is doing all he can to comply with the radical Muslim agenda (while trying to sell it to the US public as aggression or revenge):

US to leave Saudi ? Certainly
Dump that “Bad Muslim” Saddam ? Of course
End sanctions that hurt the Iraqi people ? Trying hard
Palestinian State ? Doing all I can
Less US interference in the Islamic world ? No problem

  • that’s OBL’s entire shopping list and, within his capability, Bush has ticked every box.
    It would therefore seem entirely contrary to current US policy to ‘go after’ either of these countries - and a contradiction in itself given the huge trade concessions, loans and existing loan deferments Bush had to give Pakistan in order to use their air space and territory during the Afghan war (while knowing of the links with a-Q). I suppose you could throw in a whole lot more; geo-political imbalance (vis India), 140 million upset Pakistani’s (including many in the US), the fact of Pakistan’s nuclear capability, a huge and well-maintained military . . . nah, the US can’t do “what it wants with them”, least not without facing unacceptable consequences.

Sometimes you just have to swallow and keep focused on the main prize.

Saudi ? The US is leaving and had to acquire Iraq before it did so. That says all you need to know about the post-9/11 importance (recognition) given to Medina and Mecca by the Bush Administration - matter of tip-toeing out the door and wishing the host well.

Also, none of this precludes the US going after a-Q personnel. One has to distinguish respect for a religion, it’s peoples and cultures (in the widest sense) with an organisation that wants to destroy you (back to the debate within the shifted Islamic bell-curve about tactics).
Conclusion: The only solution is real-world, hard ball realpolitik – acceptable (to all the major players) ‘regional re-alignment’ by the empire (sufficient degree of control over the world’s oil flow) - and not the PR ‘revenge’ crap that’s dished up to an unquestioning and eager-to-hear US public.

You could be right, London, about Bush following a grand strategy along those lines. But, if he were doing so consciously, there’d be far fewer gross screwups, far more resources thrown into it, far less backtracking and course-changing, even fewer lies. Rather, I’ll stick with the majority view that his geopolitical actions are better explained by simple arrogance and ignorance.

I’ll have to take issue with your summary even as it is, though:

US to leave Saudi ? Certainly
The popular sentiment would seem to be against non-Muslims in Mecca and Medina specifically, but popular support of the Saudi government itself doesn’t seem strong. The US forces may be seen as a check on them. And don’t kid yourself; they’re there to keep the oil fields under stable, West-friendly control.

Dump that “Bad Muslim” Saddam ? Of course
That’s been a US goal for quite some time, but a popular MENA middle-class one? Less clear. Also, don’t assume that popular opinion is based primarily on religious reasons - a “bad Muslim” he may be, but a strong Arab leader he also was.

End sanctions that hurt the Iraqi people ? Trying hard
That could have been addressed at any time, for one, and the welfare of the Iraqi people is not obviously (to MENA eyes) a primary goal here, as far as can be told from the press.

Palestinian State ? Doing all I can
A sham state, subordinate in effect to Israel, with all concessions on the Israeli side. Doing all he could would involve real negotiations, not Sharon-type ones. And the process is hopelessly broken down now, especially since the construction of the Berlin-type wall.

Less US interference in the Islamic world ? No problem
Where the hell do you get that? The US military is going to be stuck there for a long time now, in a combat environment. There could hardly be more interference in the region than the war and its aftermath.

Actually, London_Calling appears to have hit on something. The big problem with the whole thing is this: why wasn’t the US more prepared for the postwar period in Iraq if this was the master plan? The remarkable display of bumbling and ineptitude since the end of the war is hardly consistent with someone who has a well thought out plan like yours.

Financing terrorists is not that hard is the conclusion… if a minor prince is involved the amount of money might not be huge but more than enough to get things going well.

Seems the US is once again sleeping with the enemy…

And many in the administration, particularly the Department of Defense seem to want to keep people equating Saddam’s Iraq=Al Qaeda/bin Laden:

For example fromthis story in the LA Times there is this quote:*Acknowledging the importance of public opinion, a senior Pentagon official told The Times last week that three conditions are needed for success in Iraq: ‘Patience, a commitment by the American people to sacrifice and the will to win.’

To maintain widespread public support, the official said, the administration also needs to keep trumpeting another theme — that if we don’t fight Al Qaeda in Iraq, we will wind up fighting it at home.*"

The gist of the story, by the way, was the administration’s strategy of likening the post-Iraq war job to the rebuilding of Germany after WWII. The fact that most of the German rebuilding was a part of the overall Marshall Plan to help the whole world recover from the disaster is soft pedalled. As is the fact that WW II was not a US initiated, preemtive war.

Pakistan appears to be not all that great an ally. The charge is that many from the Taliban who fled Afghanistan into Pakistan have been protected there and are now reentering Afghanistan and restarting the war. A “Pakistani Official” was quoted on CNN as saying that it {i]impossible* that the Taliban could be coming from his country.

And look at it this way:

Let’s say that the Bush administration knows fully well that there are serious problems with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Let’s further assume that the Bush administration wants to do something about it. How do you go about it?

How do you muscle Saudi Arabia? Do you think the U.S. could have gotten support in the Middle East for an attack on Saudi Arabia? What would such an attack do to the world oil supply? How does the U.S. stage this attack?

It seems to me that the way you pressure Saudi Arabia is by going into Iraq. Build a Democracy next door, and put a massive U.S. military base there. Gain control over several deep water ports for bringing in materiel. Gain control of Iraqi oil fields so you can help stabilize world oil prices in case you have to attack Saudi Arabia.

But I don’t think there is a plan to attack Saudi Arabia. For one thing, just because *some royals are in bed with Osama doesn’t mean all of them are. There are THOUSANDS of ‘princes’ in Saudi Arabia. Many of them have their own agendas. It’s a mistake to refer to the ‘Saudi Government’ as if it’s monolithic. It’s really more of an oligarchy - a widespread, somewhat disconnected monarchy in control of the country. So it may well be the case that many royals are frantically working to help the U.S., while others are frantically working against. Is that a situation that requires invasion? Probably not. What has to happen is the U.S. needs leverage over the royal family, and needs to defang the extreme elements.

But the essential problem in Saudi Arabia is that there is a very radical population, a large collection of radical clerics that control huge constituencies, and a large, unemployed, disaffected population of young men. The Saudi royal family has stayed in power by gaining the acceptance of the clerics by essentially buying them off and looking the other way while they attempt their Islamist revolution, and they’ve kept the west at bay by being allies, allowing bases to be staged there, and waging a powerful propaganda campaign in the U.S.

The thing is, this is a tightrope walking act. And now the winds are starting to blow. The Saudis are being increasingly scrutinized by both sides. They’re feeling the pressure. The U.S. needs to make sure that they break in the right direction. The way to do that is to raise the stakes, and I would argue that the way you do that is to park a few hundred thousand soldiers on their doorstep.

As for Pakistan, that’s just a very, very difficult situation. Sure, Pakistan is heavily tied into al-Qaida. Hell, bin Laden may be there. But Pakistan is somewhat similar to Saudi Arabia in that the government is walking a tightrope between a large population of extremists and threats from the U.S. on the other. I think Musharref would like nothing better than to have the whole al-Qaida mess go away. But his grip on power is somewhat precarious.

And you can’t invade Pakistan. It’s a nuclear power. It would be a very difficult thing to accomplish. And why would you want to, when you have a government in place already that would like to work with you if it could?

All of this just highlights how difficult the problem is. But the Bush administration’s strategy seems like a reasonable one. Get rid of Saddam. Install a presence in the Middle East free from Saudi politics. Apply pressure to the Saudi regime to cut funding to terrorists. Kill as many terrorists as you can. Break their networks up, make it hard for them to do business. In the meantime, as London_Calling pointed out, do everything you can to address the concerns that cause the extremist arguments to gain traction among the middle class.

We’re still very early in this fight. Iraq was more of an opening salvo than a war. It was D-Day. The U.S. has a beachhead now. As Mark Steyn said, “2001: Islamists kill Americans in U.S. 2003: Americans kill Islamists in Middle East”. The Bush adminsitration is taking the fight to the enemy, while doing what it can to make sure that more people don’t join the fight on the enemy’s side.

That is certainly the opinion of ex-cia agent Robert Baer, who just wrote a book called “Sleeping with the Devil: How Washington Sold our Soul for Saudi Crude.”

http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/interviews/int2003-05-29.htm

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1400050219/ref=ase_theatlanticmonthA/103-6467839-5348658

Also interesting are the links between Wahhabi terror groups and the Bush/Norquist/ axis:

"FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT has kicked over quite an anthill in Northern Virginia. A U.S. Treasury task force, Operation Green Quest, has been investigating the funding of Islamic terror. Raids on March 20 struck an extraordinary array of financial, charitable, and ostensibly religious entities identified with Muslim and Arab concerns in this country, most of them headquartered in Northern Virginia.

Reaction to the raids suggests the Feds inflicted serious injury on the Wahhabi lobby, the Saudi-backed extremist network that largely controls Islam in America. Officials of the targeted groups as well as their non-Muslim apologists–notably GOP operative Grover Norquist, the chief enabler of Islamic extremists seeking access to the White House–have condemned the raids as civil rights violations."
http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/001/072kqska.asp

And then there is James Baker “Bakr” III, who is defending the Saudis against those nasty Americans who lost loved ones on 9-11 and actually have the gall to sue SA.

And as long as we are going to use analogues, that D-Day beachead consisted of about 35,000, followed up over the following months by several million more.

Is anyone we know pressuring the Canadian government to send money and troops to assist in the enlargement of the Southwest Asia “beachhead” to a useful size. If such an enlargement is even possible and isn’t just a pipedream of the Air Head In Chief.

And I guess you are saying that there is some merit in the Arab complaint that the US is trying to remake Southwest Asia in its own image?

I guess I don’t quite see how the first sentence leads to all the goodies that are described in the rest of the paragraph. Just call me slow.

Mmm, I can’t figure out how the postwar behavior of the U.S. in Iraq, which has been inept in the extreme, is going to keep the terrorists from recruiting, or impose any kind of order at all on all the warring factions in Iraq and the rest of the ME.
Looks to me like we just sunk ourselves into the muck up to our necks. Getting out of the muck is going to be a job and a half, one that so far this Admin appears incapable even of acknowledging, much less of getting done right.
If this was part of a thought out plan prior to the action, their deeds so far betray no evidence of it.

Hey I am slow too… I got the part about killing terrorists. Please when did they “make sure that more people dont join the fight” and when did they “address the concerns that cause extremist” ?

Was it before or after they shot a lot of Iraqis driving by checkpoints ? Before or after they interrogated anyone arabic ?

Now here I have to agree with Rashak Mani. Where do you see the US doing anything to make sure that more people don’t join the fight on the enemy’s side?

But you saying this makes me fear, that some folks (including you - possibly even including Bush) actually belive, that the US is doing something about the causes of terrorism. Please enlighten us!

Sure as hell looks like more people joining the fight every day, not fewer.

I believe they are, Elvis. Initially coming across the wholly open border from Iran but, beyond that, from all over the show. As said to Coll a moth ago, it’s reading more and more like the Mujahedin vs. the USSR in Afghanistan circa 1990 every day (no CIA this time to fan the fires, though) - be grateful no ones declared a Jihad yet.
I’ll get back to you tonight on your intimidating longer post (above). Apologies.

No intimidation was intended, really, but I look forward to continuing the discussion in depth.