They very well might. And they may or may not be right to do so, it greatly depends on the kid, the makeup and the reason.
Personally, I find lots of European cultural representations of Blacks just as offensive as US minstrelsy, like Zwarte Piet or the Black pirate crewmember in Asterix BDs.
Nope, that’s just flat-out wrong
No argument here - a sheet is not a toga. But not all dressup is caricature, some people actually take the time and trouble to get the details right and do so in a properly respectful way.
Yes, but people who knowingly make others feel inferior, and don’t care, are bullies and assholes. You have the right to be a bully, but you probably shouldn’t be.
Think about something that is deeply important to you on a personal and spiritual level. Something that is fundamental about who you are. Something that informs your life choices. Maybe it’s religious maybe it’s just deeply personal. Now imagine a major corporation telling the whole world that this this that is deeply important to you is a silly trivial thing.
Common cultural appropriation is generally fine. I can see how sacrilege or disrespect for things that are a big honor or a big taboo in a culture is not so fine. Many people who worry about appropriation don’t seem to understand the difference.
…I don’t need to look it up. I believe that I’ve made my stance on freedom quite clear in this thread.
They have the right to express how they feel. They have a right to have their voices heard. And as we’ve discussed throughout the thread: this is all that they really have. Maybe it isn’t them that need to “get over it.”
And you are mocking the impoverished and the poor and the people who are least able to stand up for themselves.
Right is right.
Lets just say once again “You aren’t obligated to do a god-damn thing. You are free to do whatever the fuck you want.” We get it. You don’t care. Well: you care enough to keep responding to me. But you don’t care any more than that.
What unreasonable demands are you talking about?
We’ve already established that the Plains Indians cannot interfere with how you choose to appropriate their culture. This has been conceded long ago.
The question is what do you do when they ask you to respect their culture. You are free to tell them to “fuck off.”
But you are also free to respect their wishes.
To repeat: “Indigenous cultures world wide have had their lands, their livelihoods taken from them at the force of a gun. They have had to endure decades and in some cases centuries of being treated like second class citizens on their own land. Of having legal systems enforced on them.”
And your response to that? “Nothing about the indigenous culture is being taken away.” You really are missing the big picture.
The typical North American values “freedom” above all other values. This is why we are having this discussion. But that isn’t the same around the world. An Iraqi may value “security” above freedom. The North American might say “how can you have security without freedom?” The Iraqi would respond “but how can you have freedom without security?”
With Maori, the value that we would hold above all others is family, or “whanau.” Whanau isn’t just “mum, dad and the kids.” Its your whakapapa.
Which of those four things are most important? It depends on your perspective. Freedom is important to you: and from your perspective “nothing has been taken away.” The indigenous people still have their freedom, so why are they complaining?
But plenty has been taken away. The traditional western “nuclear family” has broken apart whanau, and many Maori feel disconnected. The indigenous people of Australia have been pushed off their lands. If you want to understand how they feel: just for a minute imagine your right to free speech being taken away.
So it fucking fantastic to live in a country where Maori have their rights enshrined in our founding document and that the “dominating culture” isn’t actively trying to suppress Maori culture, but embraces it.
Isn’t that true of everything subjective?
Oh give me a fucking break. I haven’t addressed your “food” issue because you didn’t present a “food” issue, just a set of strawmen. Then you changed the question three times.
And yeah, you kind of are “deciding for them.” Because by choosing to photograph a “model in a headdress” you’ve literally decided for them, even if they object.
Well you haven’t though, have you. You didn’t think it was “superior.” You just thought it looked cool. It isn’t being “worn by males of the American Plains Indians who have earned a place of great respect in their tribe”.
Its the equivalent of taking the American Flag and using it to wipe your arse. I will defend to my death your right to use the American Flag to wipe your arse. Freedom of expression after all. But don’t you think it would be nicer to take peoples feelings into account? And not do something that will offend and upset people just because you can?
I will passionately defend your right to mock and appropriate Maori culture. I do that here. But I will also passionately explain why culture is important to us, and why I think you should stop.
The same recourse they use right now: peer pressure.
No: my argument is not concluded.
A point that I haven’t disagreed with since I started posting in this thread.
Which question was it that you wanted an answer too?
I’m not mistaking anything. You haven’t posted this passionately about anything in Great Debates for a long while. You’ve made it perfectly clear what your position is. I know exactly where you stand.
Happens all the time. Look up websites reviewing movies for a Christian audience, and see how often they’re offended by an unflattering depiction of their religion or of believers.
Once again, how far are we supposed to go to avoid being “assholes”? What you propose can only be put into practice if you limit yourself to a very small subset of aspects of a small subset of cultures. If you try to actually implement it in a consistent way, it completely falls apart. Most of the contemporary popular music is cultural appropriation of Black American music, once again. Most political discourse is deeply offensive for some subgroup or another.
“Cultural appropriation” and your statements about not being a bully or an asshole are just attempts at giving a philosophical or moral basis for rejecting some extremely specific things. Nobody actually envision to implement it consistently himself, by making sure to never offend a Mormon or a Russian, to never criticize a belief or opinion that is deeply important for someone somewhere, by telling their friends to stop playing an Indian or Irish instrument, stop writing a novel that takes place in Chile, stop drawing a Japanese character that isn’t perfectly realistic and so on. Actually following this principle would just prevent us to express ourselves in any meaningful way.
I definitely don’t feel obligated to be respectful wrt everything that someone sincerely thinks is worthy of respect. And I’m 100% certain that you don’t, either. I’m 100% certain that you despise some beliefs and opinions that many people hold dear. You just pick and choose which disrepectful statements and actions make someone an asshole (a very small number of them) and which disrespectful statements and actions are acceptable.
…potentially? Nope. How do you know if something is offensive unless someone tells you its offensive?
I think I’ve made it pretty clear by now where I stand on you being able to express yourself freely. But in case you still don’t get it I’ll say it again. Please feel free to say whatever the fuck you want.
“Some” people. As I’ve already said (and you would have known if you had read my posts) : cultural appropriation isn’t always a bad thing. If you want to argue with the people that think it is, then go argue with them.
Slippery slope bullshit. Strawman nonsense.
I am not advocating for intellectual and cultural segregation. I’m asking people to be polite. Being polite isn’t saying good bye to “artistic creation.” Stop being overly dramatic.
Simple answer to this one. I am not the arbiter of what is important to my culture. When the first pictures of the Pixar Maui came out there was a bit of debate here about his “bulk”. Most didn’t care. A few were offended. I thought it was fucking awesome. We grew up with stories of Maui. He “fished up Aotearoa”. He is a huge part of Maori culture. I had always imagined him to be full of muscles and strong and powerful but a little bit “boring.” But this imagining of Maui: not only is he strong and powerful, he looks like a bit of a joker. I think he is wonderful. Has he been “appropriated?” Yes he has, and IMHO they have done a wonderful job doing so.
Those few that were offended spoke out, as is their right. And those that disagreed spoke back. Debate raged, consensus formed. There is no “right answer” in something as subjective as this. As I’ve already said in this thread “Sometimes offence cannot be avoided.”
But you have the ability to listen, judge, form an opinion and make decisions.
You don’t have to walk on egg shells at all. How many times do I have to tell you that? Say whatever the fuck you like. I’m absolutely sure that there are plains Indians who don’t give a shit about feather bonnets.
But why should you consider otherwise?
“In Native cultures, both feathers and face paint are earned through actions and deeds that bring honor to both tribes and nations. Individuals [outside the community] who wear feathers or face paint were not given the rights or permissions to wear them. This is analogous to casually wearing a purple heart or medal of honor that was not earned.” – Dennis Zotigh, Cultural Specialist, National Museum of the American Indian"
I don’t think that people should wear medals they didn’t earn. And wearing a feathered war bonnets without having earnt it is exactly the same thing.
But you can listen to the Plains Indians who don’t give a shit. I’m not stopping you. Go for it.
I tend not to think in cliches. It clouds your judgement.
If everything stops at this point, no one has proclaimed anyone’s feelings more or less valid.
It’s what happens next that does so.
If my feelings are as valid as yours, then when you learn that you have inadvertently offended me, you apologize and STOP DOING THAT. I then accept your apology, and all is well.
If, however, you decide you’ll just keep doing whatever you want to do because how dare anyone accuse you of cultural appropriation when that’s not at all what you intended, THEN you’ve decided that my feelings are less valid than yours.
Also, if I decide that your apology for inadvertent offense is not enough to mollify my outrage, then I’ve decided that your feelings are less valid than my own.
The cultural appropriation comes in when someone says “Oh, I didn’t realize that would offend you - but screw you, I’m doing it anyway.”
Eating Chinese food? Not appropriation
Wearing a cultural honor reserved for revered members of a society - Maori tattoos, eagle-feather headdresses, Purple Heart awards - probably appropriation.
To understand cultural appropriation from a conservative point of view, I would compare it to stolen valor. If hipsters started wearing purple hearts as an earring, and tattoos of infantry badges became a fad among millennials, I don’t think that veterans would be too happy.
Hmm, looking at the link… That’s a lot of tattoos, over a lot of skin that is typically covered in October, and year round on girls. You really couldn’t do that with temporary tattoos.
Wait, what? First of all, plenty of secular Americans celebrate Christmas, as a great deal of the holiday traditions are non-religious. And Thanksgiving in the United States is explicitly not a Christian holiday. It doesn’t even have to involve religion at all, if you don’t want it to. That’s one of the nice things about it.
Plus, some Hindus I know think of Jesus as yet another form of God.
I don’t see the problem with any of that. The problem is putting on exaggerated characteristics and adopting exaggerated behavioral stereotypes with the intent to denigrate a group of people.
Robert Downey Jr. in blackface during Tropic Thunder was funny. Weird Al in a fat suit is funny. Ali G is funny. Those white women from Kansas who got, unjustly, expelled from college for posting on social media in black face and using slurs not funny.
This is where I try to draw my personal line as well. I didn’t know that Maori tattoos were on that list until this recent issue. I wonder how many tattoos in general would violate these emerging social norms.
However - I have also had the offenderati talk about so much more. A friend removed the framed art prints she bought in Mexico from her walls after having several guests tell her it was cultural appropriation for example.
Like many things - there are legit issues here, and there are some people going way too far in getting offended.
I’m conservative and that’s an interesting point. Wearing a Purple Heart as an earring wouldn’t bother me. What bothers me is wearing a full uniform with the intent to deceive or get a fraudulent benefit like a 1/2 price burrito.
But that’s like claiming part minority ancestry, falsely, in order to benefit from a race biased scholarship program. Now you’re actually causing harm.
