Given some of the positive responses towards Chavez on this message board and his Catholic references, I’d be curious as to his stance on abortion, condoms and creationism/evolution.
According to National Geographic, the idea of Chavez as a Democratic leader is laughable at best. The man has made it essentially illegal to speak ill of him or his programs.
One of the big things that made him so popular with the poor is that he’s seizing land from the wealthy, and then breaking it up into a modern kolkhaz, distributing the land to the poor.
Of course, his big fans here (who also seem to hate Bush, interestingly enough) don’t see that as a problem.
Learn your history before you apologize for terrorists (must I remind you of how “un-American” that is?
Posada Carriles, Orlando Bosch and the Downing of Cubana Flight 455
As for Cuba being a member of NAM, how’s that possibly a lie?
Did you read your own cite?
If we beleived all the labels, we’d believe that the old East Germany was the German Democratic Republic (Deutsche Demokratische Republik).
Hee hee hee!
So Cuba refused to be considered part of any sort of “bloc” in 1979, huh?
Yeah, I’m sure they stopped cashing the Soviet checks after that.
Why no Chavez thread?
Don’t feed the trolls. (and as much as it pains me to explain myself, this is not ANY reference to ANY SD poster, but rather a reference to Chavez himself). He’s a one man circus just looking to get press and outrage and all the rest of it to buff up his image at home. BORING!
As did Egypt with the US’s.
Politics.
See this article.
Luis Posada Carriles may well have had something to do with planning or even the bombing itself (the CIA docs seem to implicate him as being involved in planning and support, not the actual act). Nevertheless, he was neither found guilty or confessed to that particular act of terrorism. That cite gives a *possible scenario, * not proven facts. The author is “José Pertierra is an attorney, practicing in Washington, D.C. He represents the Venezuelan government in the case of Luis Posada Carriles.” Hardly fair or unbiased. :dubious: :rolleyes:
Here’s Wiki, which has been subject to frequent attacks and spamming on this subject, and changes often, thus it can’t be relied on either.
CNN sez
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/17/posada.arrest/
“Posada adamantly denies any role in the attack. He was jailed for nine years in Venezuela, but he was *never convicted * and escaped in 1985.”
Luis Posada Carriles did try to assassinate Castro, but certainly many would consider that an act of guerrila warfare, not terrorism. In any case, that’s not what Chavez is talking about. There is no doubt in my mind that Luis Posada Carriles would be tortured in Venezuela and then turned over to Cuba, where things would just get worse. I really don’t know what to do with him myself.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/venezu9843.htm
*"Police Killings, Torture, and Ill-treatment
Police continue to carry out extrajudicial executions of criminal suspects. According to the respected nongovernmental human rights group PROVEA, 130 people, most of them young male criminal suspects, were victims of extrajudicial execution by national, state, and municipal police forces between October 2002 and September 2003. About one in ten of the victims were children under the age of eighteen. In many cases, the police covered up executions by asserting that the victims were killed in exchanges of gunfire, despite contrary testimony by witnesses. Generally, the police responsible for killings escaped justice.
In early February and late March 2004, National Guard and police officers beat and tortured people detained during and after protests in Caracas and other Venezuelan cities. After demonstrators clashed with National Guard units and Chávez supporters, leaving thirteen people dead and more than one hundred wounded, security forces detained more than three hundred civilians. Detainees reported being beaten during and after their arrests with nightsticks, with the flat side of sabers, and with helmets, gunstocks, and other articles. Some reported that their captors hurled tear gas bombs into the closed vehicles in which they were seated, causing extreme distress, near suffocation, and panic, while others described how the powder from tear gas canisters was sprinkled on their faces and eyes, causing burns and skin irritation. Detainees also reported being shocked with electric batons while in custody and defenseless. The alleged abuses appeared to enjoy official approval at some level of command in the forces responsible for them.
Prison Conditions
Conditions in Venezuelan prisons are cruel, inhuman, and degrading. Overcrowding is a chronic problem and prisons are virtually controlled by armed gangs. Prison riots and inmate violence claim hundreds of lives every year. In 2003 PROVEA estimated the prison murder rate to be forty times the national average. "*
HumanRightsWatch also gives the USA a hard time, so they seem unbiased.
Note that "The author José Pertierra , who represents the Venezuelan government " claims that his government doesn’t torture. He’s a big fat liar, at least on that account.
Others have already debunked Cuba being “non-aligned”. It may be a member of NAM, but that’s not what Chavez claimed. Of course, *calling yourself * the “Non-aligned movement” is meaningless- many dictatorships call themselves “democratic republics” too.
Or read the Human Rights Watch link I just supplied.
To you maybe, just so happens that his speech was an absolute hit with the majority of those present:
Chávez attacks ‘devil’ Bush in UN speech
– bolding and underlining mine.
Surprised at you, John, being King of The Nitpickers, I would have thought my point was clear.
My only objection is that Chavez’ statement about Cuba being a member of NAM is not a “lie.” Quite a different argument from saying that any of the countries in it were realistically “non-aligned.” – an idea that never prospered for obvious political and economic interests.
OTOH, and mainly due to current US foreign policies, it may yet rise from its own ashes. Oil alone, gives them quite a bit of power.
Well, I was taking Dr. Deth at his word in that he claimed Chavez said Cuba was non-aligned. If all he did was say it was a member of that group, then you’re right. Perhaps Dr. Deth can give a cite for clarification. If Chavez claimed that Cuba was actually non-aligned, then the fact that it is a member of the NAM is meaningless, as I said.
Of course, it should be noted there were an awful lot of dignitaries dressed up as empty seats.
Nothing more needs to be said.
I am amused by Rangel and Pelosi using Chavez to attempt to look tough seven weeks before the election. If their upcoming huge disappointment wasn’t on the horizon we wouldn’t be hearing from them.
Or perhaps they are sincere and I’m just too much of a politcial cynic…
Nah.
They’re trying to score foreign policy toughness points with moderates and the undecided.
Rather than just labelling him a dunderhead, isn’t it worth considering that Chavez’s views are widely held in other parts of the planet?
Wouldn’t you feel that way, too, if you were “them”, instead of “us”?
Depends on what he had for lunch, doesn’t it? 
Besides, I thought the whole “George is da devil” stuff was obviously overblown rhetoric…
This is news? 
:rolleyes: True to form, ehe rjung? Why don’t you actually click the link, ehe?
-XT
Is it our ignorance or our arrogance? We don’t know, and we don’t care.