No Hugo Chávez Thread?

Great Debates
61

Much as I hate to be merciless…
Oh fuck it, let’s just be merciless.
Venezuela ranks pretty much at the bottom in terms of ease of starting a business. You could plunk 5 bucks down for the latest ish of The Economist, or a few more for the latest World Bank report on this subject, if you’re of a mind, else you’ll have to take my word for it. It takes an unbelievable amount of time to start one down there. This is, for the uninitiated, a standing invitation to corruption. Given his stupid, idiotic rhetoric, it takes neither brains nor discernment to see that this useless waste of space will do nothing to help with this situation.
Venezuela is a hopelessly corrupt, venal little supply region - the world is only interested in its oil, to burn for its development, and really, what could be more primitive than to sell something for someone else to burn?
For Chavez to stand in front of the UN like he led a country that is in any way viable is a joke. A bad joke, at that.

Bush, OTOH. Bush is a Third World class leader at the head of a First World country. He’s another very bad joke. Let us quote, let’s see, David Broder :

The two of these useless assholes deserve each other.

As for this thread, I see a number of self-described libertarians defending Bush, as usual. To call this a vomitacious spectacle would be an understatement. It is an exercise in truly astonishing hypocrisy, though.

62

[QUOTE=elucidator]
Is it our ignorance or our arrogance? We don’t know, and we don’t care.
[/QUOTE]

I agree completely. The “America is evil” club has always been grounded in ignorance and envy. Millions of people owe their personal freedom, fuctioning economies and quite a few of their lives to the american taxpayer. But when someone needs a boogieman to destract the folks at home from their own incompetence, Uncle Sam is an easy target. Tens of millions of people in the former Soviet bloc alone have benefitted from American blood and treasure.

Oh…and someone please feel free to take my “boogieman” sentence, quote it, and share your snarky brilliance about GWB. I’m sorry to let a draft into your ideological cuccoon, but your negative feelings about the Iraq war don’t change over sixty years of history and american generosity. But go ahead We all know you’re going to do it. It’s as predictable as the laughter scene at the end of a scooby doo episode.

63

[QUOTE=pantom]
As for this thread, I see a number of self-described libertarians defending Bush, as usual.
[/QUOTE]

Can we have a number of cites to demonstrate that? This thread isn’t even about Bush. I went back over the first page and the only thing even remotely looking like a defense of Bush was when **XT **asked what was wrong with the Axis of Evil speech. One guy asking a question = a number of people defending Bush?

What did I miss?

64

[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus]
Of course, it should be noted there were an awful lot of dignitaries dressed up as empty seats.
[/QUOTE]

Oh oh. Who did Dubya threaten to invade this time?

I’ve no doubt John “The Animal” Bolton diplomatically left his seat for fear of biting Chavez’s neck when his boss was called a “devil,” but would you happen to have a cite telling us who else was missing?

65

John, you’re right. My apologies.
What is notable is that xtisme (who self-describes as a libertarian) takes every opportunity to get on Chavez, meanwhile ignoring that the person Chavez is attacking takes every opportunity to restrict liberty in every way he can.
That, and his unopposed ad hominems on his debating partners, which he also throws in whenever he can, and which always manages to cloud my judgement.

Carry on.

66

John, pertinent text:

[QUOTE=CHAVEZ (THROUGH TRANSLATOR):]
We mentioned Cuba. Yes, we were just there a few days ago. We just came from there happily.

And there you see another era born. The Summit of the 15, the Summit of the Nonaligned, adopted a historic resolution. This is the outcome document. Don’t worry, I’m not going to read it.

But you have a whole set of resolutions here that were adopted after open debate in a transparent matter – more than 50 heads of state. Havana was the capital of the south for a few weeks, and we have now launched, once again, the group of the nonaligned with new momentum.

And if there is anything I could ask all of you here, my companions, my brothers and sisters, it is to please lend your good will to lend momentum to the Nonaligned Movement for the birth of the new era, to prevent hegemony and prevent further advances of imperialism.

And as you know, Fidel Castro is the president of the nonaligned for the next three years, and we can trust him to lead the charge very efficiently.

Unfortunately they thought, “Oh, Fidel was going to die.” But they’re going to be disappointed because he didn’t. And he’s not only alive, he’s back in his green fatigues, and he’s now presiding the nonaligned.

So, my dear colleagues, Madam President, a new, strong movement has been born, a movement of the south. We are men and women of the south.
[/quote]

67

[QUOTE=pantom]
What is notable is that xtisme (who self-describes as a libertarian) takes every opportunity to get on Chavez, meanwhile ignoring that the person Chavez is attacking takes every opportunity to restrict liberty in every way he can.
[/QUOTE]

So…if Chavez attacks Bush this, um…makes him right? About Bush? About America? About the UN? About The West™? About the Price of Tea in China? I’ll give you about Bush (save for the over the top connotations of Bush being the Devil…gives the man too much credit IMHO). The rest though? Sorry, I’m not buying.

BTW, I don’t actually attack Chavez at every turn. Go back through the various HC threads…you’ll find me mostly silent. More than a lot of folks, I know how fucked up Central and South America is. And while I think socialism is a dead end, and I think that Chavez is basically using natural wealth to buy himself the good graces of the people and make his brand of socialism sort of work, I have to admit that he is doing better than MOST of the tin pot dictators down there…who seem to not bother even trying to translate their natural wealth into popularity, only roll it into their own bank accounts. Note Mexico as an example (my native country).

Anyway, because Chavez attacks Bush doesn’t mean HIS house is in order, or that the rest of the BS he spews (which is actually what I was addressing…he can blast Bush all he wants for all of me) is correct or anything more than the rhetorical bullshit it is.

YMMV…obviously you won’t be alone. :stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

68

[QUOTE=pantom]
Venezuela ranks pretty much at the bottom in terms of ease of starting a business. You could plunk 5 bucks down for the latest ish of The Economist, or a few more for the latest World Bank report on this subject, if you’re of a mind, else you’ll have to take my word for it. It takes an unbelievable amount of time to start one down there. This is, for the uninitiated, a standing invitation to corruption. Given his stupid, idiotic rhetoric, it takes neither brains nor discernment to see that this useless waste of space will do nothing to help with this situation.
[/quote]

While I agree with what you say about corruption and business practices in Venezuela, I think much of the same applies to every Third World nation I know – and in LA I know a few. But if you take away any and all hope they might have from time to time – say, Chavez in Venezuela’s case – what are they to do? Resing themselves to corruption and poverty while they watch the fat cats get fatter generation after generation?

I’d like to think there’s a glimmer of hope out there somewhere.

In the case that occupies us in this thread, I also daresay that the indigent are better off currently than they were prior to Chavez. Does that mean I admire the man? Hardly. First, he is a politician, secondly, his vulgarity and thundering rhetoric work quite well with his populist image – I don’t happen to care for either. But, in the end, if he makes Venezuela a better country for its people (you know, the “brown” ones living in shanties. IOW, the vast majority in Venezuela) well then, hats off to him.

And may he grow many a clone if he does – lord knows this part of the world needs to make a clean break with its putrid past. The sooner the better.

So, please, don’t go killing their hope. Not just yet anyhow…

They are people too.

69

[QUOTE=RedFury]
John, pertinent text:
[/QUOTE]

OK. I should not have just assumed Dr. Deth was right in his paraphrasing. I guess it’s the difference between being non-aligned and being of The Nonaligned.

70

Red Fury, he’s the one who’s killing their hope.
I’m a dark-skinned Latin, and I know for a fact that I have a far better chance here, in the US, than I ever would in Venezuela, or in Cuba. Why? Because the overwhelming evidence is that, if you just let people live their lives as they wish, which includes not only political freedom, but economic freedom, you get the best results, in terms of both freedom and prosperity. Chavez can easily do this, given that he sits on top of all that oil wealth, and allow an easy transition to a regime where starting a business is as easy as it is in the US, Hong Kong, and Singapore, the top three in the World Bank ratings for this; not coincidentally, all three are far more prosperous than Venezuela.
And it is true that selling something for someone else to burn is just the definition of primeval. If you’re a true leader, you realize this and get the conditions together for your people to advance so that when the burnable stuff is all gone they can sell more valuable stuff to the rest of the world. I don’t see any evidence that Chavez is doing this. He seems to be more busy travelling the world and making loud noises, rather than doing the quiet but long-term rewarding work of making things better in his own country.
I mean crap, he even has a huge opening: Bush, by tying down the American military in Iraq, has made it pretty much impossible for them to engage in their usual hobby of harassing leftists like him in South America. So Chavez really has no excuse for doing what he’s doing, other than finding the sound of his own voice irresistible.

71

[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi]

He has ruined his bid to get on the Security Council…
[/QUOTE]

Really? His attacking the most unpopular leader in the eyes of the rest of the world is going to LOSE him votes? Interesting thesis.

72

[QUOTE=ignoramus]
What, a truly democratic & meaningful UN without veto for the big boys? The man’s obviously insane…
[/QUOTE]

Well yo could have UN where Brunei has the same vote as France, I suppose. It would just have a lot fewer members in it.

73

Chavez’s oil has a problem . Its heavy and more expensive to extract and refine. I read that he wants oil to stay at 50 a barrel to allow him to stay very solvent.If they want to cripple him all they do is drop the price.Which of course many dopers don’t think is possible.He would be in trouble if they did. Whats the price now.
I suspect Chavez doesn’treally think Bush is the devil. Some of us are not so sure.

74

[QUOTE=Frostillicus]
Really? His attacking the most unpopular leader in the eyes of the rest of the world is going to LOSE him votes? Interesting thesis.
[/QUOTE]

I might be wrong (we will see), but as I see it; HC had the votes of a number of anti-American nations in his pocket. He had to gain the votes of nations that are sitting on the fence. It seems unlikely that his speech would encourage those nations to vote his way. He had a good time and really cemented support amongst those states that already supported him.

75

Some of what he said was directed at Bush, but lots of it was generic anti-American, anti-Globalization stuff. He’s not making friends with any of the big powers with that kind of rhetoric. It’s the big powers that pull the strings, whether he likes that or not.

76

Have any governments other than ours expressed any reaction to the speech?

77

[QUOTE=xtisme]
Just out of curiosity, why was Bush’s Axis of Evil rhetoric non-sense while Hugo’s rant fine rhetoric? Aside from the fact that Bush can’t speak and Hugo can of course? Based on the subject and content alone, and leaving aside obvious prejudice, what makes Hugo’s message worth while, while Bush’s was non-sense? I’m curious.

-XT
[/QUOTE]

Because, behind the rhetorical flourishes it’s a pretty good analysis of the role Bush’s USA is playing in the world today as far as the audience he is aiming at and who will be voting for him think.

As it stands the USA with a Bush face is a belligerent force for bad in everything from unprovoked wars, inhuman violations of human rights, upholding a trade system that impoverishes and kills all over the world and cares nothing for the environment. And all that on top of a post war foreign policy that gives the hypocritical lie to any pretence of being a Christian country.

And if Bush can introduce completely inappropriate religious concepts like ‘evil’ into political debate then Chavez can have whatever fun he like with his sulphur and Satan schtick. Bush is certainly doing the Devil’s work.

78

[QUOTE=Evil One]
Millions of people owe their personal freedom, fuctioning economies and quite a few of their lives to the american taxpayer…Tens of millions of people in the former Soviet bloc alone have benefitted from American blood and treasure…I’m sorry to let a draft into your ideological cuccoon, but your negative feelings about the Iraq war don’t change over sixty years of history and american generosity.
[/QUOTE]

Do you really think that’s what’s on the minds of ordinary citizens? “Their Grandfathers fought for our Grandfathers’ freedom, so everything they’ve done since is already paid for.” By that logic, shouldn’t the Japanese still hate our guts (which they seem to have gotten over)?

You GDers are far better read than I am, so this is an honest question & not just rhetoric: I thought the --kstans of the former USSR had suffered through quite a bit of genocide post-breakup, with the UN’s blue hats standing in witness. IIRC, what little good was accomplished by “Peacekeepers” happened b/c they’d deliberately defied orders. Granted, that’s on Clinton’s hands, but still, why would they feel an enormous debt of gratitude to us now?

Also, and this might be ignorance on my part as well, but who are these millions of people who owe their functioning economies to Americans? If you’re talking about US jobs being deported, isn’t that b/c American workers won’t put up with the low wages & lousy working conditions? I guess ANY job is better than no job at all, but that doesn’t mean you love your boss.

And just b/c you believe we’ve done them enormous favors, why should that mean ordinary citizens share your belief? If there’s one thing this Administration has taught us, we surely know by now that “Personal Reality” is malleable and easily influenced by Faux News.

79

[QUOTE=Tristan]
One of the big things that made him so popular with the poor is that he’s seizing land from the wealthy, and then breaking it up into a modern kolkhaz, distributing the land to the poor.
[/QUOTE]

A Soviet kolkhoz was a state-owned collective farm. What Chavez appears to be doing is breaking up the landlords’ estates into individually or family-owned smallholdings. See distributism (historically something a lot of Catholic intellectuals can get behind, BTW), as distinct from socialism/communism.

80

[QUOTE=Magiver]
Why no thread? Because Chavez rose to power through a military coup attempt and then went on to use his power against future coup attempts.
[/quote]

:rolleyes: Chavez attempted a coup in 1992, went to prison for it, and was later elected president in 1998, again in 2000, and survived a recall attempt in 2004. He also survived a coup attempt in 2002, and put it down because that’s what heads of government do. No fair crying “Foul!”