no! No! Don't count the votes! Anything but that!

First of all, I only read the excerpts posted on the MSNBC site.

Based on that, it appears that the Fla SC stuck to the statutes, and thereby prevented any problems with Article 2 of the Federal Constitution.
The dissenters brought up this point:

This is, IMO, an absurd turning on its head of what the real problem behind all of this is. The problem is that the counties with punch-card systems have a far less reliable system that demonstrably deprives them of their equal right to have their cast votes counted. This is nutty, and I have a really hard time explaining this to my 11-year old son. Or to my wife. Obviously, for the equal protection clauses to have any real bite in a national election, you need a national standard for how votes are cast and counted. It seems to me obvious that a national standard can be required by these amendments to the Constitution.
How? Well, the Constitution states that the state legislatures get to decide how the electors are chosen. But, if the legislature decides that this will be by popular vote, then immediately the equal protection clauses kick in, and a national standard must be enforced. One man one vote only has meaning if each vote also has an equal chance of being counted after it has been cast.

That’s how it seems to me, anyway. And my wife, and my son.

Finally, though, Gore should still have

a) conceded, and then

b) pursued the court cases, as a matter of morality and law.

This would have given us everything we needed: a focus on how votes are cast and counted, and a new President with some legitimacy. What’s happening now is going to turn into an ugly civil war (see Tim Russert’s comments on the selfsame MSNBC site) that will not really be forgotten until we’re all dead.

And SPOOFE: you know Stoid’s right. It’s obvious the Republicans realize that if all the votes cast are counted, they lost. They oppose it for the same reason they block efforts to make voter registration easier: they know that the more votes are cast, the less chance they have of winning. It would be better for the country if the Republican party were forced to the center by having to address the concerns of all of us, instead of the subset of those who can go out of their way to register and vote on a work day.

stoid basing on gossip would be downright reputable:)

And Gore was, what, maybe a B- student? If you guys want to impugn Bush’s intelligence, at least choose something where Gore is noticably ahead of him.

But Stoid wrote this in her OP:

So even our Stoidela is a little afraid that the hand count could go for Bush. But how can this be??? We all know the Gore got more votes!!!
If this were going to be a totally impartial, unemotional count, I’d say, go for a hand recount. But it’s not going to be impartial, and we all know it. There are wavering standards, standards being changed mid-stream. The shifting standards of “what is a vote” is a great concern to many people. And there are the tales of extremely partisan canvassing board members overruling dissenting Republicans in determining what a vote is. I am sure there are some canvassing boards that are fair and impartial, but let’s face it, it is a TOTAL mess down there, complete chaos. The strong impressiong people are getting (whether it is accurate or not) is that things can never be impartial under these circumstances. But you’ve heard this all before, you know this.

And this is all supposed to be done, under extreme pressure, a huge rush, over this weekend? Sounds like a recipe for disaster, lots of mistakes, frayed nerves, total chaos.

Well, Spoofe,everyone here knows, of course, that you are the font of all wisdom, truth, and unvarnished fact and that the reason this is so is due to your close personal friendships with both Dubya and Al, (not to mention every single member of the staffs and legal teams, and of course their families) , which of course gives you, and only you, the singular ability to grasp reality.

But the rest of us can dream, can’t we?

:rolleyes:

I agree with pantom. My only regret is that they finally went to the right decision a little late in the game. All votes in dispute in all counties should have been looked over. Then no one can claim unfairness.

I was told that some of the White Democrats in Florida are undercover Republicans, who would do anything to block the Black vote, even if it hurts them. The Democratic mayor in Miami betrayed Gore when he didn’t have those imported protesters at the canvassing board there cordoned off.

Oh the drama continues! I do hope Bush wins because I want to see Al Gore being dragged away from the stage on inauguration day.

My advice to all dopers is to do your research and figure out which tech firms will be the first to develop and market a more reliable voting method. Because there will be a public DEMAND for improved versions of the Vote-O-Matic so we can avoid this fiasco in the future.

Two thoughts I am going to post quickly before I give in to my silly desire to post a lengthy review of the majority opinion and the dissenting opinions.

First, the United States Code does NOT require that electors be chosen by December 12!!! 3 U.S.C. §5 simply insulates from Congressional challenge any elector chosen by the 12th according to procedures in place prior to Nov. 7. To assert, as Milossarian does, that the electors ‘must’ be in place by Dec. 12 under federal law is not only incorrect, but irresponsible. READ the law, THEN make assertions about it. (fume, fume fume)

Second, there are two dissenting opinions, and the two authors couldn’t even agree on the basis for upholding the lower court’s decision. So this is NOT 4-3, it is 4-2-1. Were one of the justices in the majority to join the opinion of Chief Justice Wells, while the OUTCOME would have changed, there would have been no majority opinion, because the four justices in favor of upholding the decision of Judge Sauls wouldn’t have been able to agree why to uphold him. Let’s keep this in mind when thinking about the majority opinion and how ‘bad’ it is.

I’ll be back as soon as I can digest and type out thoughts on the opinion of the majority (which I DO note was not authored by any one particular justice…)

Damn, elucidator, you must’ve been reading my mind!

On the way home from work yesterday, I kept on thinking, “I gotta try to get through on the C-Span call-in line, and say…” …well, pretty much what you posted. :slight_smile:

Too bad some posters didn’t ‘get’ it…:smiley:

The answer to that, dublos, is that Bush wins. That’s been Gore’s position throughout, it’s been the Democratic Party’s position throughout, and I think it’s been the ongoing position of the vast majority of Dopers arguing the Gore side of this one.

Now if Bush and the Republicans (including Katherine Harris, who could have been told that her ambassadorship depended on it :)) had agreed to that, the means of resolving this election would have been settled by the Friday after the election, and the election itself resolved in another week or so.

BTW, the whole ‘we need to recount the whole state, rather than just four counties’ bit has apparently been strictly for public and court consumption, according to the last paragraph of this Washington Post story. Apparently the GOPers have been aware since early on that the Dems stood more to gain by recounts, even in counties the GOP carried, as the Miami Herald’s precinct-by-precinct statistical analysis indicated last week.

'Bout time their bluff got called. :slight_smile:

Except for those pesky little laws that it would have violated.

So, the GOP accepted as truth the conclusions of a Miami Herald conducted analysis that hadn’t yet been conducted? And somehow got Judge Sauls to rule opposite it, as well.

I’ve been reading the FSC decision and I have a question.

I keep reading (and hearing in the news) that the Florida Legislature can appoint their own slate of electors even if Gore comes out ahead in the vote tabulation once the recounts are completed, therefore having 2 slates of electors before Congress. In particular, in this thread, Milossarian states:

However, I find this to be somewhat misleading in that it implies that the Legislature can just willy-nilly appoint whatever electors they please regardless of how the citizenry has voted. But in the FSC decision it says…

So can someone please explain to me under what authority the Legislature can simply elect their own slate of electors for Governor Bush should the recount show Gore as the winner? Wouldn’t their slate automatically be invalidated based on their own prior legislation? I’m finding this particular point to be extremely confusing.

Thanks to anyone who can clarify.

Commenting on some of the FL C.J.'s quotes from Sam Stone’s post:

About time someone gave the U.S. Supreme Court what for, for taking a case where it was unclear if there was indeed a Federal issue at all - and then wound up vacating the decision because (as DSY elegantly pointed out elsewhere) they couldn’t tell if they had grounds to vacate it. (Hope I read you right, DSY - if not, feel free to correct me. :))

Since the US Supremes denied cert on the same issue writ large, a couple of weeks back, why should they take it now?

Is there not a difference between saying any valid votes must be counted (which the majority ruled) and setting standards for determining the outer margin of validity (which the majority refused to do)?

There really isn’t time to do a complete statewide recount. This is the closest thing to justice that can be managed in the short time available. God forbid that a court should try to include reality as a factor in its decision.

God forbid that counting the votes should present practical problems.

That’s a risk that has to be taken. If Bush wins the recount, then nobody gets disenfranchised. If Gore wins the recount, then the outcome of the election is the same, with or without Florida’s electors.

And who exactly got us running this late? GOP stallball. The Democratic laughter you hear is ironic.

Do the FL statutes have any conflict on the standards for hand counting? If not, then on what basis can the FL courts prescribe standards? They got involved in the deadline issue because there was an apparent statutory conflict to harmonize.

I’ve been a professor of mathematics myself, so I don’t stand in awe of Paulos’ expertise. His statement is true in some senses, but not in others. And even if we accept the manner in which it is true as controlling, that doesn’t necessarily mean we should stop counting. There are plenty of other factors to consider.

jshore, a quote like that sure sounds good. It would sound better if you go and actually read the Fla. SC’s opinion.

I agree, the first 40 pages are definitely tortured logic. It’s hard to follow what David Boies – um, I mean the majority justices on the Supreme Court – are basing their recount decision on. It convolutes all over the place.

Agree or disagree with his argument, Chief Justice Wells’ dissenting opinion is pretty straightforward and far from tortured logic.

While I’m back, can someone please explain this to me:

Miami-Dade, before the court’s first deadline Nov. 26, started a hand recount of all the county’s ballots. Not “undervotes;” all of their ballots. They “found” 162 votes for Gore, but then, only a minuscule way through the count, decided they could not complete it, and stopped.

The precincts in which they found these votes were very heavily Democratic in make-up. They had not yet gotten to the Cuban-American precincts that are very strongly Republican.

In its most recent opinion, the Fla. SC says to count those 162 found Gore votes in Miami-Dade, but now the process is switching to evaluating “undervotes.”

A. Am I incorrectly interpreting the court’s ruling, and if so, how?

B. How in the flying monkey-fuck is that fair and reasoned?

What the FL Supreme Court said was count the undervotes and any county can count their undervotes if they wish. I did a quick and dirty count of the undervote ballots in most of the FL counties [a few did not have a single undervote and about 6 or 7 could not be determined from the CNN list]. The total number of undervotes not counted in Bush counties is about 23,000 votes; this includes Duval and Hillsburg [?]. Gore counties total approx 18,000 undervotes. Looks mightly close to me to call it clearly Gore or Bush.

At least we have seen our election fight being fought in the courts. Take a look at Mugabe [Zimbabwe’s President who has basically broken the economic back of his country]. He recently declared [ie: he issued a Presidential decree] which bans any opposition electoral challenge in the courts. The decree states this holds true even if there were corrupt or illegal practices committed during the election. This one man decree was issued “in the interests of democracy, peace, security and stability”…because of the intolerable burdens which would be placed on the elected lawmakers. Also, potential challenges were described as frivolous or in the external interests outside of Zimbabwe.

Let’s look at the opinions, and see what thoughts can be had about the reasoning used by the justices involved:

Majority opinion:

The majority opinion starts out by addressing one of the concerns raised by the Supreme Court of the United States. The opinion declares that the controlling law is that which was enacted by the Florida legislature prior to Nov. 7, 2000. Florida’s legislature has the power under the US Constitution to provide for the selection of electors who will choose the President and Vice-president. That this procedure can include the courts is explicitly condoned by 3 U.S.C. §5. The legislature has melded the selection of electors with the general election, applying all the same laws regarding elections in Florida to such selection. This includes the law allowing contests of elections (§102.168). The contest law allows a party to contest an election when there has been a rejection of legal votes sufficient in number to alter the outcome of the election, or place the result in doubt. In remedying such a situation, a judge can do pretty much anything necessary. Florida law has long included the idea of recounting votes as a remedy for improper vote tallies.

To this point, they seem to be on pretty solid ground. They have advised the Supreme Court of the US that the state legislature does allow them to be involved in the process of selecting electors through judicial review of the results of the election. The contest law allows the judge to recount votes whenever there have been enough valid ballots rejected that the outcome of the election is in doubt. All this is just pointing to actual statutes, without the need to even ‘interpret’ the language therein.

The opinion next addresses the question of what standard of review the judge should have used. It notes that a contest under §102.168 is not the same as a ‘protest’ under §102.166. In a protest, the county canvassing board is just a neutral fact finder. Although the opinion doesn’t say this, one must assume that in a protest proceding, the determinations of the canvassing board are given great weight, resulting in the judge upholding them absent ‘abuse of discretion.’ The opinion then states, without citation to a single opinion or relevant statute, that in a contest proceding, the ‘abuse of discretion’ standard does not apply. Since Judge Sauls used such a standard, he erred.

Is this a valid conclusion by the Florida Supreme Court? They cite no authority for this conclusion, despite citing authority for every other statement of law made in this section of the opinion. Possibly it means there is no relevant case law. Chief Justice Wells thought otherwise, citing a Florida 4th District Court of Appeals case, Broward County Canvassing Board v. Hogan, 607 So. 2d 508 (Fla. 4th DCA 1992). But this is a lower level court, and its determinations are not controlling on the Florida Supreme Court. Still they do seem to be making an assertion without offering much explanation WHY they are right.

However, the reasoning of the majority seems sound. When you protest an election, that is, assert that the numbers are incorrectly tabulated and need to be recounted before any certification occurs, the local canvassing board isn’t being impugned by the request. Indeed, you don’t have to have any specific reason for protesting the count of an election under §102.166. But when you contest under §120.168, you are actually making an assertion that the canvassing board got it wrong. If the canvassing board’s determinations made prior to the filing of the contest were to be given great weight, then the court would be letting the very people accused of getting it wrong control whether their determination should be overturned; it may be the very reason the local canvassing board made its determination that is the reason the contest is filed. Indeed, on this issue two of the minority justices agree; only the Chief Justice thinks ‘abuse of discretion’ is the appropriate standard. He probably is incorrect, both as a practical matter, and as a matter of law.

Next the opinion establishes that the trial judge is allowed to count only a portion of the ballots as a remedy under §102.168. This seems to me putting the cart before the horse, that is, they haven’t even decided if there SHOULD be a remedy. But the analysis is impeccable; for my refutation of the contrary assertion in the dissenting opinion(s) see below. Basically, §102.168 lets a judge fashion just about any remedy he thinks necessary to resolve the issue brought by the contest. And you will note that they understood the fact that you can’t just contest specific counties in a general state-wide election, so the ‘undervotes’ in the entire state must be counted if the remedy of a selective count is to be properly applied.

As a quick side note, the opinion also at this point addresses the other question from the Supreme Court of the US: does the Florida Constitution govern the selection of electors? The opinion asserts that it does, in the sense that the legislature established one method for elections in Florida, including the selection of electors, and that method is controlled by the Florida Constitution’s mandates about the ‘will of the people’. I think here they are trying to kill two birds with one stone; the language here appears irrelevant to the decision the court is making.

Finally, in looking at what the trial court did, the opinion notes that the plain language of §102.168, as amended in 1999, allows a successful contest if the plaintiff shows that the outcome of the election was placed ‘in doubt’ by the rejection of ‘legal votes.’ Judge Sauls relied upon case law that existed prior to the amendment in 1999 to the statute in establishing that the plaintiff had to show that there was reasonable probability that the result would be different. I concur with the majority here, especially since the determination of Judge Sauls on this issue is at variance with the language of the Florida Supreme Court in Beckstrom v. Volusia County Canvassing Board, 707 So.2d 720 (1998), where the court said the words ‘reasonable doubt’ was enough to overturn an election where there was substantial noncompliance with election law.

The opinion next decides that the language in §102.168(3)© regarding the ‘rejection of legal votes’ includes ballots which include a ‘clear indication of the intent of the voter’ and which have not previously been tabulated by voting machines. In this, there is little to argue. Florida’s law does apparently state that ballots should be recorded as having a vote when there is ‘clear indication of the intent of the voer’, see §101.5614. Interestingly, no one has pointed out that it is apparently the county canvassing board’s duty under that section to make SURE that an ‘undervote’ is actually an undervote before certifying ANY result of an election to the state. YIKES! Further, to assert that a ballot with such ‘clear indication’ is not ‘rejected’ if the canvassing board doesn’t tally such ‘clear indication’ becacuse it doesn’t record on the machines is stretching interpretation to the breaking point. The scheme is clear: count all ‘clear indications’ and if you don’t, and it might change the outcome, you can be ordered to count them.

After establishing the law, the opinion looks at the claims regarding the decisions of each contested county action. As I long ago noted, the decision of the Dade County board not to manually recount the ballots was the hardest to justify legally, especially since they had already made the determination under §102.166 after a sample canvassing of precincts that the manual recount should procede. I might note that the Florida 3rd District Court of Appeal agreed with me on this specific point, see the citation of the opinion at page 30 to Miami-Dade County Democratic Party v. Miami-Dade County Canvassing Board, 25 Fla. L. Weekly D2723 (Fla. 3d DCA Nov. 22, 2000). In any event, as the opinion notes, the lower court was bound to order some remedy if it determined that the plaintiffs had established a ‘reasonable doubt’ about the outcome of the election as a result of the rejected ballots. Since the court refused to even determine IF there were ballots with ‘clear indication’ of voter intent among the rejected ballots, it erred in not ordering a tally of these ballots.

This does get a bit problematical, but I think it has more to do with poor writing of the opinion than poor reasoning. I keep in mind when reading this thing that not only is there no official ‘author’ of this opinion, meaning it was cobbled together from many sources, but the second dissent has elements in it that show it was written before the final version of the majority opinion was established. It makes for a very poor effort at written decisional law.

Dade County started a manual recount. It counted 22% of its precincts, covering 15% of the voters in the county. This all was in evidence. In that much recount, there was a net gain for Mr. Gore of 168 votes. Included in this manual tabulation were roughly 1700 of the 10,750 ‘undervoted’ ballots in the county. Thus, we have a gain from the ballots tabulated of 168 votes, when the statewide result seperates the two contestants by fewer than 1000 votes. When applying the ‘reasonable doubt’ about the election result standard, this, combined with the results in other counties, certainly supports a valid ‘contest’, requiring a remedy, under the analysis of the court to this point.

Indeed, although the opinion continues to seperate the issues on a county by county basis, it should be emphasized that the results of any given county are only evidence of the overall claim, that is, that the State of Florida may not have selected electors pledged to vote for Mr. Bush because legal votes for electors pledged to Mr. Gore were rejected. The results in the various counties have to be looked at in aggregation, if the state has properly determined that the contest is a state-wide issue.

Next, the opinion supports the trial court’s determination that the Palm Beach County Canvassing Board properly rejected 3,300 ballots because they did not express a ‘clear intent’. Here, the trial court’s determination was correct because even if the wrong standard was applied by the trial court, under the right standard there was no evidence that the rejected ballots included ballots that contained legal votes; the only evidence on the subject was the determination of the canvassing board that they did not.

Which, of course, flies in the face of the admonition from the majority opinion that the judge should have looked at the Dade County ballots to determine whether legal votes were rejected. Palm Beach County used different standards for determining ‘clear intent’ than did other counties. Plaintiffs are alleging that the standard used was incorrect. If the trial court has this issue before it de novo, it can’t use the determination of the board as conclusive or even presumptively correct evidence. In light of evidence showing that the standard in other counties was different, and in light of the fact that the rejected ballots themselves were never looked at, this seems no different than the issue in Dade County.

Now, the opinion begins to get really problematic. First, it asserts that the results of the Palm Beach County manual recount should have been accepted by the state Elections Canvassing Commission, despite the fact that the Florida Supreme Court itself said they were NOT to be included in the certified totals. Thus, to take this logic to its conclusion, the state should have certified the result of an election, then accepted subsequent totals showing that the certification was in error as part of the ‘official’ figures. Then, the opinion appears to hold that the ballots in Palm Beach County don’t have to be reviewed at all, but that the reported result of that county’s manual recount must be accepted by the trial court, yet the uncounted, undervoted ballots in Dade County DO have to be tallied, and ONLY the uncounted, undervoted ballots. Finally, without ANY reference to the evidence before the trial court, the opinion dismisses any claim that the canvassing board in Nassau County did anything wrong.

All of which misses the essential holding of the opinion: that the trial court is being required to determine what ballots have rejected legal votes and tally those votes. Having made this determination, the Supreme Court of Florida should have simply ended its discussion. If the trial court decided that this could be done by the canvassing boards, according to their own interpretations of ‘clear intent’, then the judge would be free to accept the Palm Beach County results, order Dade County to review any undervoted ballot so far unreviewed, and deal with Nassau County as he saw fit. In so doing, the trial judge could give guidelines on what would constitute ‘clear intent’ with manually punched card ballots, which might, for instance, force Broward County to recount their ballots with a stricter standard. But instead, the Florida Supreme Court, having asserted that this is a statewide election, starts piecemealing the issues and ignores the concept of a statewide result, and in addition begins to fashion orders not necessary to the result of the primary holding: find the rejected legal votes and count them.

As it finished up, the opinion properly rejected the ‘time is of the essence’ arguement in ordering the identification and tallying of rejected legal votes. To address this, I’ll turn to Chief Justice Harris’ dissenting opinion.

The Chief Justice Dissents:

This opinion starts out with fundamental statements that show the CJ doesn’t like the fact that election is still at issue. In analyzing the law, though, we come first to his assertion that the courts shouldn’t make it their business to get involved in elections. This is a swipe at the majority’s assertion the legislature designated the courts to resolve contested elections. But the CJ’s assertion is undercut by numerous examples where the Florida Supreme Court HAS gotten involved, whether fraud was involved or not. Indeed, Beckstrom is a classic example.

Next, the CJ attempts to assert that the trial court should give great deference to the canvassing boards, reviewing them under an abuse of discretion approach. In this, he is the only one of seven justices who so thinks, and in this his only support is a lower court decision. His own analysis seems to be that, if you don’t do it this way, you might end up with multiple recounts. This of course ignores the legal issues here, favoring his favorite theme of the opinion, that it isn’t being practical.

Next, the CJ engages in a classic bit of legal hair-splitting. He asserts that the grounds upon which a contest can be filed are not the grounds upon which it can be upheld. Specifically, just because the plaintiff has to allege that the election is placed in doubt doesn’t mean he can be successful by proving that; he should be forced to prove that the result would have been different. Says, the CJ, “It is illogical to interpret section
102.168(3)© to set such a low standard where a plaintiff merely has to allege a cause of action to successfully carry the contest.” This is stupid. Even the CJ knows that merely alleging something isn’t proving it, but that the BURDEN of proof may well be established by what the statute allows for a cause of action. Here, plaintiff must plead AND prove that there were sufficient rejected legal votes to place the result in doubt. His level of proof is still more than a simple allegation and here it was amply met by the actual evidence proffered. Either the CJ is confused, stupid, or simply trying to muddy the waters.

But in the next paragraph the CJ comes close to the heart of the most valid reason to think the majority got it wrong. What the majority did is read the amendment to §102.168 as allowing a successful contest in order to determine who actually won the election. Prior to the amendment, it can be argued that a contest, to be successful, had to show that the election actually WAS won by a different party. What the CJ fails to do is attack this legal determination by the majority, for here is the REAL issue central to the result: Should the issue of ‘counting’ be totally a ‘protest’ issue, or should it be a ‘contest’ issue as well? The majority said ‘contest’ issue; the CJ after raising the contrary thought fails to really grasp what he is saying and blunders back into his wilderness of misconception that a pleading is not evidence. Oh well.

Then, the CJ notes that the ‘dimpled chad’ issue is going to cause problems. Of course, he once again makes a poor analysis of this. His reference to the concept of creating duplicate ballots where the card is defective or damaged has no relevance to the proceding at hand. Then he raises equal protection issues regarding multiple standards statewide on what is a ‘clear intent’ to vote, but fails to follow through by showing whether this really DOES violate the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. “OOOOOH, we are scared,” says the majority. Why, for goodness sake, NOT set forth some simple 14th Amendment analysis??

Using the ‘abuse of discretion’ standard, the CJ then finds that the judge got the contested determinations of the boards in Dade County, Palm Beach County and the Elections Canvassing Commission correct. In this, his analysis is faultless, especially his pointed chastisment of the majority for ignoring the concept that Palm Beach County’s results were late by the rule the Florida Supreme Court itself set. Of course, again, this confuses the ‘contest’ with the ‘protest’, but, by now, this is so common on the part of both the majority and the CJ we almost expect it.

Then, the CJ rejects the determination of the majority that the legislature has delegated under the contest statute the proper counting of votes. His analysis here is incomplete. It appears to hinge on the assumption that the only proper counter of votes is the canvassing board, and they should be given great deference in their determinations (a scheme which, by his OWN ADMISSION, might violate the 14th amendment…). Again, we are back to the issue of standard of review, with nothing new here. IF a judge under a contest can review the issue de novo, then the recount of votes is not improper; if the judge must review the issue under abuse of discretion standards, then it probably is improper.

Finally, the CJ raises the specter of practical mayhem. In short, he says that the courts should bow out because they are not allowing a speedy resolution. This is simply bad law. The courts exist to get a thing right, not to remedy only those things that they can speedily resolve. While the federal scheme of the election puts some time-pressure on the issue, the fact that everyone wants a final decision isn’t enough to avoid doing what the law requires. The CJ should know better.

The ‘Other’ Minority Opinion:

I will state for the record: THIS IS NOT A MINORITY OPINION.

First, the opinion, in FAR greater clarity, establishes that Judge Sauls blew it in reviewing under an ‘abuse of discretion’ standard. READ this to understand why, cause the opinion does a good job here.

But then the opinion makes the same error that CJ Harris made. It determines that there is insufficient evidence that the statewide result would be different. In so doing, it fails to apply the very standard it asserts Judge Sauls should use: evidence that the statewide result MIGHT be different. It DOES, however, avoid the pitfall of both the majority and the CJ in failing to understand that the whole state has to be the focus of the contest, and the results in individual counties are only evidence of what might happen. One presumes the author here is looking for a statistical analysis that shows that the results in the Democratic counties wouldn’t be offset by a pick up of votes for electors pledged to Mr. Bush in heavily Republican counties. Still, with a showing that the votes already tabulated under the standard mandated by the legislature from among the statewide subset to be tabulated narrows the gap by almost a third, I’d have to say the result is enough to put the election at doubt.

And the reason the author blows it is shown by what follows: the author didn’t know the majority was going to order a statewide tabulation of the ‘undervote’. Indeed, he assumes it impossible to accomplish that remedy in a timely fashion. So is the author concluding that the lack of an available remedy is sufficient reason not to grant what the plaintiffs are asking? And is he really dissenting with the majority, or is he simply confused what the majority was going to do, and didn’t feel comfortable ordering what they eventually did order, but didn’t have time to change his opinion? We may never know.

In sum, then, was the majority wrong? Not really, at least, not in its basic analysis and underlying holding. But as it did in the first opinion it issued, it then wandered off into unfortunate waters, apparently unable to do the simple task of saying: you were wrong, here is how to get it right, now do it. But the minority opinions don’t adequately explain how the majority should have analyzed the basic issues, with the narrow exception of the attempt of the second opinion to establish that there was not sufficient evidence of reasonable doubt about the result statewide, analysis which was at least in part based on a faulty standard that conflicted with its own statements to that point.

What laws? The three that conflicted? Katherine Harris chose to read those laws in a way such that the one she liked trumped the other two. She could have been persuaded to interpret the conflict in a different manner. Absent a ruling from the FL courts resolving the conflict of laws, that would have been exactly as legal as what she did.

Absolutely: they found the same facts, only earlier. They accepted the same conclusions as truth alright, not because of the Miami Herald obviously, but due to their own research. Happens all the time.

Boy, I was surprised with the decision to allow another count of undervotes, etc.
I even thought of Stoid doing a happy jig or something!

Ok, I don’t get it. Justice Wells says in his dissenting opinion that,

Sounds to me like what he’s saying is that he’s tired of all of this so let’s not “drag it out” anymore, let’s just get it over with already. That he thinks continuing with the legal process automatically creates a constitutional “crisis” is contrary to the fact that we actually have provisions for just such a contest in place. How does this equate to a crisis? If it does, then why were provisions for such an event included in the first place?

He further states,

However, isn’t that precisely what the majority decision calls for - the election being decided by the voters by actually counting their votes? It seems to me that it was the lower court’s judge (Sauls) who was attempting to decide this election by thwarting the count of legally cast votes, not the majority here.

Wells continues,

How is this even remotely true? As I read the majority ruling, they didn’t rule because they “subjectively concluded it was the right thing to do.” They did so because they had the legal authority to do so…

And then there’s this footnote:

Doesn’t that fly in the face of logic? How on earth would it be possible for a machine which is calibrated to recognize light showing through a completely punched out chad as a vote, to erroneously count 2 votes in the catagory of President if there weren’t 2 punched out chads? It’s aleady been well established (and unrefuted as far as I can tell) that a mere prick or hanging chad that’s been folded back flat by the machine will not be registered as a vote by said machine. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that “overvote” ballots must have had, by definition, 2 chads completely punched clean or the machine would not have registered one or the other of those punches. How could there be any ambiguity in that? In addition, when counting those ballots as overvotes, the machines were not “rejecting” them, they were, in fact, counting them. They counted them with 2 votes. Therefore, no, those ballots do not qualify as “rejected” ballots, so they should not be included with the undervotes in this ruling. Wells’ reasoning fails to sway me on this point.

And this had me completely confused…

Isn’t that exactly what the majority ruled - that “all counties in which those processes were used be recounted”? How is this a dissention from their ruling? Seems more like agreement to me. Or am I just missing something because my eyes are buggy after reading 48 pages of this so far?

I think I’m sufficiently brain-fried that I’m going to quit reading now and pick up the last 22 pages at a later time.

Thanks for providing us with that detailed analysis, DSYoung.

I guess we’ll see in a few days what the U.S. Supreme Court thinks of the FL majority’s reasoning.

I guess the Supreme Court’s stay order will be on the Web shortly, but I’m mystified as to how that part can be justified. It would seem to me that any ‘irreparable harm’ that might be done to Bush’s interests is trumped by that done to Gore’s. But what do I know - law isn’t my field. :rolleyes: