An essay by Peter Watson in the left-leaning New Statesmen says the following:
What do you think?
Asymmetric warfare springs readily to mind.
I wouldn’t think so.
Perhaps we should also give credit to the Arabic and Islamic traditions of medieval times, who preserved the works of Aristotle and Plato?
Seriously, though, look at the Chinese, the Egyptians, etc etc…we get alot from eastern culture.
Note that Mr. Watson alleged,
Seems a little overstated. The Japanese economic system is rooted in pre-20th century culture and the unusual circumstances resulting from the post-WW II era, but it still was a highly effective and interesting innovation/refinement. There have been some technological achievements in the non-Western world, musical variations ( modified from Western styles, but those were themselves filtered through the lens of other cultures ), Nobel prizes won in literature, etc.
If we’re talking completely novel ideas, well there’s few enough of those around anyway. Few things spring forth from a tabula rasa. For example a lot of famous, innovative European painters in the 19th century were heavily influenced by traditional African art.
But in a very general sense I can agree, as the 19th and the 20th century really have been the Age of the West.
- Tamerlane
Maybe this is MINOR, but eastern medicinal techniques-yoga, acupuncture, etc etc are around.
Maybe it IS the age of the west, and I’m just wrong, but I don’t think so.
Yeah, the whole ‘zero’ thing sprung to mind at first, but if we’re limited to 20th century that’s a different ball of wax. Western culture has so dominated the world from 1900 on that it can be difficult for non-western concepts to make headway.
Honestly, I’ll have to think about it.
Anyone want to run down a list of Nobel winners?
I think the thesis is weak, as it appears to be an observation without a point. At any time in history, some group is going to be more advanced (or advancing more swiftly) than many/most other groups.
However, if we are able to run out and compile a list of “new thoughts” and the list turns out to be preponderantly Western, what does this show us? Perhaps that India and China were so overwhelmed by European intrusions throughout the 19th and 20th centuries that their “best minds” were focussed on other things? Yes, they each achieved independence about 50 years ago, but China has been hampered by a political philosophy and India has been struggling with post-colonial issues, as well. Perhaps that the domination of Western Asia by the decaying Ottoman Empire–and its abrupt destruction by European powers who held the land in mandates through WWII–might have disrupted some of the intellectual development that might have gone on.
And “the West” has had one haven open that was not readily available to any other culture: the U.S. did not suffer any invasions or have to deal with war on its own soil, so many people in disrupted Europe were able to shift their location to the U.S. and continue their work. In the last 30 years, the U.S. has been receiving more people from throughout the world, but prior to that, it was basically a haven for “Western” scholars.
Guinastasia wrote:
True, China did give us the Ancient Chinese Secret of Calgon.
The nationalist movements and collapse of colonialism in Asia and Africa is pretty much entirely non-Western, and I’d venture that Ghandi and his philosophy of non-violence and passive resistance will wind up getting nearly equal spce in the history books with Marxism and Leninism.
And while I’m not an artist, I can’t really believe that there hasn’t been one significant idea originating in a non-Western society that hasn’t found its way into 20th Century art, music, dance, literature, drama or cinema. What about Kurosawa, for crying out loud?
I just think that there are too few “novel ideas,” period. I think we really need a list.
Relativity
Atomic weapons
Electronics
etc.
What about Bose and his contributions to Physics? Or Mohandas Gandhi’s ideas of nonviolent protest and passive resistance?
Wow - this does require some thought (although, toadspittle, not for lack of novel ideas in the last 100 years).
From Japan:
Akira Kurosawa is a good choice. Revolutionary film director.
Whoever streamlined auto production and turned the industry around??? Same thing with electronics.
From India:
Mohandas Gandhi is a good choice. The original vegetarian pacifist!
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi started the whole TM thing, changing millions of lives.
I was going to say I.M. Pei for architecture, but he was educated in the USA. Hmmmm.
again, twentieth century, darling, the question is about the twentieth century. Those things have been around for a long, long time.
Not sure if he counts, as he was educated in England and his works were based largely on Thoreau’s ideas of civil disobedience. He did have a new take on those ideas, though.
Where do we draw the line for an idea of note, anyway?
Does straight science count? If so, there have to be a lot of non-western Nobel-winners.
How small can it be? Is Godzilla an idea of note? The big lizard has had a large impact on pop culture. What about minor refinements in automobile assembly, or electronics, as sumac mentioned?
Does it have to succeed? Was China’s first “five year plan” an idea of note? I’d say it was, even though it was a disaster. Same for the “cultural revolution”.
Maybe this is the era of the West, but I think Mr. Watson has a bit of a western-centric world if he believes that there were no non-western ideas of note in the last hundred years.
-Beeblebrox
“Ford!” he said, “there’s an infinite number of monkeys outside who want to talk to us about this script for Hamlet they’ve worked out.”
Ghandi lived in a British colony, and his ideas were developed specifically in reaction to British colonialism. Kurasawa used a Western technology and film vocabulary, and was a big John Ford fan to boot. (In the 50s, Japanese critics used say that Kurasawa’s films were too American.) So there was a large “Western” influence on both men.
I think it’s becoming increasingly difficult to classify ideas as “Western” or “Nonwestern.” For example, I work in the videogame development. It’s a business that originated in the US, became big business in Japan, and is now spread throughout the world, from Croatia to Britain to Israel to Korea. Does Mario embody Japanese beliefs? Is Lara Croft specifically “British culture”? (And what about Donkey Kong, whose games were created first by the Japanese, then by the British.;)) It’s a truly international business, and an increasingly international form of pop culture.
Here’s another example of an international idea–quality circles. In the US, this became famous as a “Japanese management technique” during the 1980s. However, the Japanese had learned the idea from American W. Edwards Deming, who had promoted it when he was in Japan as part of the American occupation after World War 2.
Deming invented the idea, the Japanese were the first to actually show how it worked, and now of course it’s used throughout the world. Is it an American idea or a Japanese one? Does it matter?
The world is becoming an increasingly international place. That doesn’t mean it’s becoming a more peaceful place, or a place where everyone thinks alike, but it does mean it’s becoming increasingly hard to label ideas as coming from a specific region.
How about the keiretsu (Japanese companies all investing in/owning pieces of one another)? Since been adopted by US corporations, all of whom now own large portions of each other.
Vastly overstated. Firstly, I have a hard time believing that the person actually spoke with the wide array of people claimed ‘cause he would have run into at least claims to the contrary.
Second, the statement “ideas of note” is so vague as to be nearly meaningless. I can think of a number of non-Western thinkers who certainly have garnered attention for their unique contributions (sometimes negative but the question doesn’t posit positive contributions of note) to political organization. In addition to Ghandi I could add Fanon, for example. (In re the retort that their ideas were derived/influenced/in reaction West so that doesn’t count, I then say, well it rather looks like we have to give all credit for modern math to the Islamic world since al-Jibra…… False and gerrymandered standard.)
Now, if the author is thinking in terms of great technological transformations, probably there’s a better ground. And I agree with Tamerlane that the 19th century and 20th century have been the age of the “West” – not monopoly but certainly overwhelming dominance. (E.g. one can hypothesize that perhaps there are brilliant thinkers who have gone overlooked because of structural issues. If a Nigerian philosopher has thought of some great transformative essay but he doesn’t get published or distributed in the West, which is the global media center, it’s like the proverbial tree in the forest falling.)
I’ll add that I do consider it true that Western society with its ferment, openness and fluidity is structurally better endowed to create and disseminate ‘new’ ideas or put into effect restated old ones better than most societies.
BTW: nothing new in cross-ownership of corps. The Japanese particulars are perhaps unique to their system, but the concept is hardly new.
[hijack]
Can someone explain to me what this consider.net thing linked in the OP is?
Thanks
Chris
[/hijack]
Define non-western?
When does something become ‘non-western’. When I talk about western nations I mean industrialised democratic nations and routinely include Japan and now Korea. I routinely don’t include large parts of the former Soviet Union.
If by western we mean Western Europe and the Americas then the statement is absolute BS. The number of innovative ideas in the twentieth century form Russian, Polish etc. people is huge. The USSR didn’t become a superpower by being staid and conservative.
If by western we mean caucasian then we run into the whole race thing. The US isn’t a western nation by that definition, nor are Australia, New Zealand or numerous other nations that have produced a huge number of highly innovative ideas.
If we do mean industrialised, democratic nations then the whole thing becomes a ‘d’uh’. Of course industrialised nations have produced most of the innovations in an industrial century.
I can’t see the statement being true no matter how I look at it.
I must agree that one, clearly this guy wasn’t talking to any non-western scholars, and two, the statement is vague and jerrymandered in order to ensure that “non-Western culture” is foreordained to be found wanting. Otherwise, the statement is so patently ridiculous that the question isn’t even worth asking.
I can’t help but wonder what point he’s trying to make. That “Western culture” is inherently superior? Then why limit it to the 20th century? The fact is that the 20th century is a time of great cultural mixing, so you can’t point to any one accomplishment and say that it’s purely non-Western. Can anyone point to a single (purely) Western idea of note, from the 20th century? Essentially all Western science can be ruled out on those grounds, because of Arab science and mathematics. I suppose you could point to the germ theory of disease but- so sorry- that wasn’t the 20th century. How about the eradication of smallpox? Sorry, that used vaccination, which was invented by the Arabs. Radio and television? Based in part on Bose’s work.
FWIW, India has produced a lot of eminent scientists during this century:
Ramanujan (math)
Chandrasekhar (astrophysics)
Ramachandran (biology)
Bose (physics)
and so forth. Actually, soon after independence, India hoped to make a world-class research university for theoretical physics, and invited one of the fathers of QM (I think it was Schrodinger) to attend. If he had gone, many other scientists were signed up to follow. Unfortunately, some jabroni made a crack about how Schrodinger was “abandoning his country” or some such, and he decided not to go, and the whole deal fell through. Even so, India strongly emphasises science (particularly molecular biology, from what I’ve heard, since it’s cheap and requires little infrastructure.)
For Japan, I should mention Hideki Yukawa, who (among other things) figured out that pions mediate the strong nuclear force.
China is clearly very scientifically inclined, too, judging from the vast number of Chinese students studying the sciences in the US.
Pakistan? Abdus Salam.
Even to the extent that non-Western countries haven’t succeeded in the 20th century like “the West,” much of that can be chalked up to post-colonial syndrome. It’s a bit like saying, in 1955, that Japan will never amount to anything, since it hasn’t accomplished anything in the past decade.
FWIW, here’s the Nobel prizes in physics (you can find the others easily enough from that page):
http://www.nobel.se/physics/laureates/index.html
-Ben
Actually, the link is correct, but it doesn’t seem to work. What will work is linking to the magazine at http://www.newstatesman.co.uk/thisweek_index.htm then scroll down to the Watson article and click on it.