No, really, where are we going?

Great Debates
1

I’m starting a new thread because the old one is not only hopelessly sidetracked but also completely poisoned with ill-will. Please, no prosyltizing.
I think it’s ufortunate that the question posed in that thread’s OP was never seriously addressed. Specifically: Where does the secular community have for all of man to go?

Some may disagree, but I take it as a given that mankind is not, on balance, getting much happier as time goes on. We may make great technological – and even sociological – strides, but psychologically we seem to be stuck in neutral, and the potential for growth in total human contentment is probably strictly capped by genetics and biology.

So, without an ever-increasing supply of human happiness . . . why are we working so damn hard? Not just professionally, but in any aspect of our lives. Why do we sweat our jobs, accomplishments, ethics, or philosophy? Why not just eat hamburgers and have sex?

Of course, for an actual person, the answer to all of the above is that if you don’t worry about your job or your ethics, you’ll be a lonely, hated man in the gutter and no one will have sex with you. But, collectively, what are we striving towards? Why are we bothering? Christians have eternal happiness and the task of creating on Earth the Kingdom of Heaven as motivation, but what do we secular humanists have as a goal for all of man? Being moderately kinder to each other? And is it not somewhat bothersome that even that virtue is ultimately arbitrary?

Thoughts?

2

That’s quite a statement regarding the happiness of all mankind. I for one am pretty damn happy, and have been getting markedly and steadily moreso over time throughout my (relatively rather short, globally speaking) life. So who are you to decide that “mankind is not, on balance, getting much happier as time goes on”? Do you think people were happy when they were slaving away in the sweltering Egyptian desert heat building pyramids and getting sand stuck between their toes? There’s not much you can do about the sand, but we have fans with misters now. I mean come on.

3

I agree and disagree. I concur that life is better today, on average, than 1000 years ago given the relative lack of abject subjugation and misery. And, of course, there’s still plenty of room for improvement in the misery-prevention field. However, when we’re colonizing the planets of Alpha Centauri, do you think mankind will tend to be happier than, say, the average present-day American?

4

[QUOTE=VarlosZ]
I think it’s ufortunate that the question posed in that thread’s OP was never seriously addressed. Specifically: Where does the secular community have for all of man to go?
[/quote]
A better world. One more just, more equitable, more peaceful, wealthier, longer lived, with less pain and more pleasure, and so on.

[QUOTE=VarlosZ]
Some may disagree, but I take it as a given that mankind is not, on balance, getting much happier as time goes on. We may make great technological – and even sociological – strides, but psychologically we seem to be stuck in neutral, and the potential for growth in total human contentment is probably strictly capped by genetics and biology.
[/quote]
I strongly disagree with the idea that we haven’t increased our total happiness. I have trouble believing that all the free people who in the past would have been slaves are not happier than they would be if they were worked to death under a whip. Or that women are not happier as free people instead of sex-chattel and brood mares. Or that the healthy people who would otherwise be suffering from plague after plague or just dead are not happier. Or that the parents who have NOT lost fourteen children before they were a year old are not happier than the ones in the past who did.

What has happened is that our standards have risen; we think that life should be pleasant, or even happy, instead of something to be endured. We also have forgotten just how hideous life was in the old days. Why do you think it’s a common feature of religions and older laws to forbid suicide, under various quite nasty threats ? Because for most of history, the rational choice was death; life was just that horrible. A religion or government that didn’t forbid suicide would probably soon have no followers.

[QUOTE=VarlosZ]
And is it not somewhat bothersome that even that virtue is ultimately arbitrary?
[/QUOTE]
< shrugs > If it makes the world a better place to live, it doesn’t matter if it’s arbitrary. I find things that we can’t just arbitrarily tweak to suit out desires to be worse, more often than not.

5

Call me Mr Doom and Gloom if you will.

I believe in all honesty we are on the path to oblivion. We may have made and taken gigantic strides to better ourselves but these strides have not always been taken for the benefit of all humankind.

We eat better, this is true, but at what cost to Mother Earth?

Pesticides blanket the earth, chemicals flood into our foodstuffs, trees are cut down with no thought for the damage done by this action of wanton vandalism.

The soil is poisoned, the seas, rivers, lakes and streams of this fair planet are polluted and the skies themselves harbour all manner of noxious gases. All this because of our meddling with nature itself.

Nature has it right, she needs no, or at least, minimal interference from us and yet we presume to know better.

Humankind is an animal doomed to extinction, we shall go the way of the dinosaurs and our legacy will be a lifeless uninhabitable ball of dust floating in space, not a soul will know we ever existed.

For those who believe we shall colonise other worlds I say “Dream on brother, dream on”

That is our fate

6

[QUOTE=VarlosZ]
However, when we’re colonizing the planets of Alpha Centauri, do you think mankind will tend to be happier than, say, the average present-day American?
[/QUOTE]
By then, not only will only have a better standard of living, but we’ll probably be able to put a neurological cap on how much you can suffer, so yes. And I do think that’s a good idea; we need negative stimuli to learn and survive, but we don’t need serious suffering - in fact, serious suffering, at least for humans has negative survival value. How often do you see people do stupid things to avoid pain and such ? Real suffering warps judgement.

7

[QUOTE=VarlosZ]
…but what do we secular humanists have as a goal for all of man?
[/QUOTE]
Really good virtual reality and soma?

This sort of question is difficult to answer. My gut feeling is no, just due to the quirks of how happiness operates. If we were magically transported there, perhaps we’d be stunned out of our mind for a couple months or years before everything becomes normal and boring. However, I’d hope that a future human (if they are even technically homo sapiens at that point) will look upon our current society as barbaric and uncivilized, just as I look upon the societies of a thousand or two years ago.

8

[QUOTE=VarlosZ]
I agree and disagree. I concur that life is better today, on average, than 1000 years ago given the relative lack of abject subjugation and misery. And, of course, there’s still plenty of room for improvement in the misery-prevention field. However, when we’re colonizing the planets of Alpha Centauri, do you think mankind will tend to be happier than, say, the average present-day American?
[/QUOTE]

Sure, why not? Happiness is hard if not impossible to measure. But we are as a species equipped for learning to adapt to our environment, and IMO we are succeeding at that. Sure, there are bound to be bumps along the way that to us in the here and now can even seem catastrophic (9/11, Iraq war, Paris Hilton going to jail). But taken with the totality of our history, these sorts of events hardly make a ripple.

9

[QUOTE=VarlosZ]
However, when we’re colonizing the planets of Alpha Centauri, do you think mankind will tend to be happier than, say, the average present-day American?
[/QUOTE]
Yes, on average, without question. A happy Alpha colonist and a happy 21st-century American won’t be any different, but there will be a lot fewer unhappy colonists than Americans.

Heck, a happy American is probably about as happy as a citizen of Ancient Rome. The American has the advantage, though, of not seeing his his children die before the age of ten, and thus is less likely to suffer misery.

10

Recorded history is a blip on the radar. I heard recently some comparison, if the earth’s history is the distance from here to the sun , then recorded history is 30 miles or so. Something like that.

I think we’ve made some progress but it takes determination and real effort. I count myself as a believer but IMHO you can look at the teachings of Jesus or Buddha and see how they relate in a philosophical way. There’s a lot of stuff there about how we should treat each other in the here and now.

The planet earth is a living organism and mankind is a connected part of it. When we live with a little respect for that inescapable fact things get better. Treat the earth and it’s resources with respect. Stop poisoning the planet for the sake of our convenience. Treat other people with respect as equals who have a right happiness.
I admire the part of our own foundation that tells us, to claim our own rights as humans we must support and defend the same rights for others.

Looking at the progress we’ve made it’s easy to see it takes courage, commitment, sacrifice and effort. Consider the efforts to end slavery in this country and then the efforts to promote civil rights. Throughout man’s history you’ll find examples of people trying to promote justice and equality for themselves and others. That’s where the secular community has to go.

The question is how much damage will we do before we get there? How much of the earth will we poison? How many people will suffer for the ignoble purposes of other selfish humans? How many people will stand idly by and let it happen?

11

Where are we going? We can only hope, dream and nudge at the course of events. Do you think getting exactly here and now was anybody’s plan so far?

12

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Recorded history is a blip on the radar. I heard recently some comparison, if the earth’s history is the distance from here to the sun , then recorded history is 30 miles or so. Something like that…
[/QUOTE]

The analogy I’ve read in various places is that, if the entire existence of the Earth covered a 365-day-long year, humanity has existed for only the last five seconds of Dec. 31. How’s that for a little perspective on things!

Humanity itself holds the key to its own destruction or triumph. We can render the environment incapable of sustaining us, do nothing to guard against a giant meteor impact, or kill ourselves through nuclear or biological warfare. Or we can protect the environment, keep a watchful eye on the rest of the Solar System, and peacefully resolve our differences - petty as they are, compared to the enormity of the cosmos - and establish a republic of humanity in which all can live in freedom, peace and prosperity.

I’m an optimist at heart, but a realist when it comes to human nature. As a species we’ve come a long way in the last thousand years. But we still have a long way to go and a great deal of work before we’ll reach any kind of idealized future.

Hope abides.

13

[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir]
The analogy I’ve read in various places is that, if the entire existence of the Earth covered a 365-day-long year, humanity has existed for only the last five seconds of Dec. 31. How’s that for a little perspective on things!

Humanity itself holds the key to its own destruction or triumph. We can render the environment incapable of sustaining us, do nothing to guard against a giant meteor impact, or kill ourselves through nuclear or biological warfare. Or we can protect the environment, keep a watchful eye on the rest of the Solar System, and peacefully resolve our differences - petty as they are, compared to the enormity of the cosmos - and establish a republic of humanity in which all can live in freedom, peace and prosperity.

I’m an optimist at heart, but a realist when it comes to human nature. As a species we’ve come a long way in the last thousand years. But we still have a long way to go and a great deal of work before we’ll reach any kind of idealized future.

Hope abides.
[/QUOTE]

the hope is that we will begin to address issues that will move humanity forward rather than pursue individual, national, or race advancement at the expense of others. More and more we see the connections between ourselves and the other humans that we share the planet with and how true it is that as we victimize others or ignore those being victimized, it eventually gets back to us.

We hope we can resolve these issues rather than poison the environment and kill each other off. We can ignore the issues facing the living organism of earth in the same way we ignore the things that slowly poison our own bodies, but there are consequences.

14

[QUOTE=the PC apeman]
Where are we going? We can only hope, dream and nudge at the course of events. Do you think getting exactly here and now was anybody’s plan so far?
[/QUOTE]

If you are inferring that an Almighty placed us here all I can say is that if He did I’m surprised He hasn’t put in an appearance before now to tell us we’ve made an absolute and utter bollox of matters.

And then smote with all His smightingness

15

This drives me crazy:

[QUOTE=chowder]
The soil is poisoned, the seas, rivers, lakes and streams of this fair planet are polluted and the skies themselves harbour all manner of noxious gases. All this because of our meddling with nature itself.

Nature has it right, she needs no, or at least, minimal interference from us and yet we presume to know better.

[/QUOTE]

Nature is not, as your rhetoric here would imply, some being that exists (and has a gender!) idependent of humanity. Humans are part of nature. I am part of nature. That poison in the soil? Every bit as “natural” as any other combination of elements that exist. If I cut down a tree in my backyard, this is not “wanton vandalism;” this is a natural, process ultimately no different from the perspective of “nature” as a whole than when a tree is destroyed by a bolt of lightning. If a species of bird goes extinct, if a whole field of pretty flowers is replaced by a shopping mall, nature doesn’t shed a poetic tear. Nature doesn’t give a shit, because “nature” isn’t a person; it’s a process. That lifeless uninhabitable floating ball of dust you posit? From an objective perspective, from the perspective of the personified “nature” you’ve created - that ball of dust is no better or no worse than what we have now.

What is good, what is bad, what is positive, what is negative - it’s all defined by the observer. From our standpoint as humans, it’s bad if that field of flowers is wiped out because we enjoyed looking at them, or because they played a role in the local ecosystem and if they are disturbed it will affect us in a negative way. It’s not bad because it’s “unnatural;” the shopping mall is just as “natural,” whatever that means, as the flowers were. It’s bad because of how it affects humans (and also, potentially, good because of how it affects humans), and that’s really all it’s our responsibility as a species to worry about, I think.

That’s the basis of my answer to the OP, actually. I think that the secular approach is to pursue, as it were, the maximization of human happiness. Most religious approaches tend to emphasize sacrificing some amount of happiness in this world for the promise of reward in the next. The nonreligious approach to the future would seem to be - let’s build a world in which everyone can be as happy as possible. Let’s reduce violence and killing to as close to zero as possible, since the dead and the wounded are rarely happier than the living and the healthy. Let’s reduce the impact of disease, poverty, and even aging, for the same reason. Let’s afford ever-greater access to entertainment, art, and just generally cool stuff. Let’s make sure there are always fields of flowers around for those who want to look at them, but always shopping malls for those who want to use them. Let’s make it so that we can have sex with who we want, with no threat of retribution in this life or another. Obviously, no person can ever have everything he or she wants - some of those wants will conflict with the wants of others, and so everything will have to be carefully balanced - but we can absolutely increase the overall level of human contentment to an enormous degree by actually working toward that goal and not toward building a kingdom of god on earth, or whatever.

16

[QUOTE=VarlosZ]
However, when we’re colonizing the planets of Alpha Centauri, do you think mankind will tend to be happier than, say, the average present-day American?
[/QUOTE]
I would say happier, but consider it this way; when we’re colonizing the planets of Alpha Centauri, do you think mankind will be happier than the average present-day Iraqi?

It’s not just about improving our own lives. It’s about improving everyone’s lives. So when we’re off colonizing the galaxy, everyone is happier. If there is no grand plan, no creator looking out for us, it’s entirely up to us (a scary prospect, certainly) to succeed or fail. Where are we going? Like this, but better.

17

We’re going nowhere. The secular (I hate that word) community doesn’t offer a place to go where we die, but only ways to improve our quality of life. The question was actually answered pretty perfectly in the original thread; there’s just really not a big enough platform to hold an on-topic debate about.

18

[QUOTE=chowder]
If you are inferring that an Almighty placed us here all I can say is that if He did I’m surprised He hasn’t put in an appearance before now to tell us we’ve made an absolute and utter bollox of matters.

And then smote with all His smightingness
[/QUOTE]
Huh? Sorry, my whooshometer is on the fritz.

19

[QUOTE=chowder]
If you are inferring that an Almighty placed us here all I can say is that if He did I’m surprised He hasn’t put in an appearance before now to tell us we’ve made an absolute and utter bollox of matters.

And then smote with all His smightingness
[/QUOTE]

I really don’t know how you got any Almighty inference out of that. Your reading skills must be more intuitive than mine.

20

I’m surprised that no one has held up as a goal the one fictional example of a humanist utopia which has dominated Western pop culture for 40 years-

STAR TREK

Really, isn’t that the idea of Western humanism- a world with every physical need satisfied but which encourages individual & collective striving for continued discovery & improvement?