No seriously: Fuck off, Kanye.

[Siege]

Shodan, I’ll put it in words of one syllable. I did not get married because I was too poor. (Ok, I used one two syllable word.) The two of us together didn’t make enough money to afford a one-bedroom apartment. From what I know of human nature in general and my own nature in particular, living in a studio apartment or with in-laws adds to marital stress and reduces the odds of a long-term successful marriage. I could be wrong, but, since I don’t believe in divorce, I’d rather not find out the hard way.

I’ve also read in several places that one problem black women face is a shortage of marriageable black men. This is a particular problem for black women with more than an high school diploma.

Actually, you, duffer, and Mr. Will are right to a certain extent. Another thing I’ve come across several times is that getting a divorce increases the risk that a woman’s income will drop below the poverty line. (This risk does not appear to apply to men.) While I don’t have an on-line cite handy, I’ve seen this in several different sources, including feminist ones and conservative ones. As I understand it, women’s income tends to decline after divorce, while men’s tends to rise.

What I objected to was the formula that high school diploma + steadily better jobs + long term marriage + no kids until after marriage is an infallible escape from poverty. I’ve known people who’ve done all four and it hasn’t worked. I also know that the lower you start, the harder it is to work your way up.

Am I making sense now?
CJ

[Tuco]

OK I can’t be bothered to read all this thread so apologies if this has already been posted, but…

This guy is fantastic! Everytime he’s on an awards show or similar he spouts off about some random bollocks and everyone has a good laugh.
We should be encouraging this guy, maybe give him his own show on a comedy network?

[Shodan]

@Siege

Shodan, I’ll put it in words of one syllable. I did not get married because I was too poor.

And therefore your example is not relevent to the thread.

OK, lets recap briefly -

We have Siege, who interprets “Getting married and staying married is a major factor in rising out of poverty” as “You will die alone”. We have Hentor, trying desperately to get someone to tell him that blacks are inherently inferior. We have critetus, who rejects studies of Census data out of hand, because he doesn’t like the conclusion. We have Askia, whose standard of proof seems to be “do I already think so? if not, never”. We have duffer, who is still naive enough to believe the good faith of the Usual Suspects. We have zeeny, who is cautious about predicting that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning, because the last six billion years could be just a coincidence. And we have Diogenes, for whom hysterical dishonesty is both a commitment and a lifestyle.

In other words, business as usual on the SDMB.

Regards,
Shodan

[Siege]

Shodan, I have one simple question for you. How can one use marriage to rise out of poverty if both parties are too poor to marry?

CJ

[Maeglin]

@Siege

Shodan, I have one simple question for you. How can one use marriage to rise out of poverty if both parties are too poor to marry?

CJ

Marry up.

[Shodan]

@Siege

Shodan, I have one simple question for you. How can one use marriage to rise out of poverty if both parties are too poor to marry?

CJ

I think perhaps your definition of “too poor to marry” might need a little work.

My point is, lots of folks who marry even if they can’t afford a bigger apartment, or even if they have to live with their in-laws, manage to escape poverty. One of the factors involved seems to be marriage, with its pooling of resources, division of labor, economies of scale, and so forth.

I have a feeling you are taking this a bit too personally. Nobody was talking about you, and your experience does not seem to fit the dimensions of what we are talking about at all closely.

But saying “no, I couldn’t possibly marry because we can’t afford anything but a studio apartment” is, frankly, a little silly.

Regards,
Shodan

[BwanaBob]

@cricetus

I don’t believe black-on-white racism has really been proven as a long and profoundly hurtful part of American history, and hence it is hard to buy the concern for “racism” as expressed in this thread. It’s whitey outrage, nothing more. The word “uppity” is lurking, just waiting to come out.

I hope I’m misunderstanding you here. Are you hinting that somehow black-on-white racism is justified up to the point where it has hurt "whites’ equally as blacks have been hurt?

Are you one of those “sins of the fathers” assholes?

If so, just leave the country; that doctrine is not allowed here. If your grandfather cheated my grandfather out of something, I’m not entitled to jack-shit from you today. That was their battle.

[tnetennba]

@BwanaBob

I hope I’m misunderstanding you here. Are you hinting that somehow black-on-white racism is justified up to the point where it has hurt "whites’ equally as blacks have been hurt?

Are you one of those “sins of the fathers” assholes?

If so, just leave the country; that doctrine is not allowed here. If your grandfather cheated my grandfather out of something, I’m not entitled to jack-shit from you today. That was their battle.

You are misunderstanding me. I am saying that whites have a grossly exaggerated sense of the “racism” perpetuated against themselves and downplay good old fashioned white-on-black racism. I don’t see how anyone who really hates “ALL racism” even has the time to bitch about something this minor.

[BwanaBob]

@cricetus

You are misunderstanding me. I am saying that whites have a grossly exaggerated sense of the “racism” perpetuated against themselves and downplay good old fashioned white-on-black racism. I don’t see how anyone who really hates “ALL racism” even has the time to bitch about something this minor.

Fair enough. I think we are on the same page.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Shodan

We have Hentor, trying desperately to get someone to tell him that blacks are inherently inferior.

I was merely asking, quite simply and without prejudice towards you, to clarify your assertions. Is this your clarification? Is this a statement of your position?

If not, why have you avoided making a response, until sniping this little sissy shot of your’s here? It’s not my fault that you want to dance around the matter or run away from it.

In other words, business as usual on the SDMB.

Apparently so - more fucking whining from a conservative, rather than making a forthright statement about one’s position or advancing a logical argument.

[zeeny]

@Shodan

zeeny - what sort of proof are you requesting? If it were always only coincidental that poor people married less often than non-poor, then encouraging marriage among the poor would have no effect on poverty rates. Correct?

Did I say it was always only coincidental? No, I said:

@zeeny

I think you have raised a a good basis for debate with “there is an extremely strong correlation between (the four factors I mentioned) and escaping poverty” but the point remains in that these points do not equal causation (i.e., correlation is not causation). So telling people to follow those points in the hopes of escaping poverty is incorrect (and either misguided or cruel, in varying degrees).

I can only hope that you are in the category of misguided, rather than cruel.

Beyond that, do you have any argument that can point to a proven causation of poverty? That would really be helpful.

At this point, I am (cautiously!) leaning towards cruel, rather than misguided.

@Shodan

We have zeeny, who is cautious about predicting that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning, because the last six billion years could be just a coincidence.

Cruel, with a coincidental sense of humor.

Seriously, the four factors in the study obviously have merit, but are not the whole story. According to census data, black married couples are almost twice as likely to live in poverty than white married couples. Hmmm…

As for the study itself as a flippant recommendation, and why it might not be well received by some, let’s put it to the ‘cruelty’ test:

Do you have children? Would you advise them accordingly? Would you be happy if they married right out of high school and took on a minimum wage job? Two full-time minimum wage earners will surely escape the US poverty threshhold, right? That’s about $20,000 p/a.

I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for them to afford to give you grandchildren, but who knows? Maybe they’ll get a raise, or win the lottery, or something (the study doesn’t go beyond ‘escaping poverty’ and address the problem of the shrinking middle-class).

The (sarcastic) point is that your ‘solution’ comes from a think tank that promotes ‘free-market’ solutions.

And of course it makes perfect sense in that context: What could be better for business than a society of ‘slave-wage’ automatons with limited education but in stable personal relationships?

But if it is not something ‘good enough’ for your own children, it is cruel to toss it off as the ‘simple solution’ for other people’s children.

Or at best, misguided - if you hoped anyone would thank you for your ‘helpful’ advice.