I’d rather hear that you do not believe the majority of liberals to be anti-Semites.
.
I mean, Ibn Warraq - you don’t see the lines on the map they are complaining about?
So? Benny Morris’s nationalistic biases are blatant. That claim stinks of tendentiousness on its face.
I don’t know about majority. I know it is an awful lot of them that are anti-Semitic. As I said, in absolute numbers, I believe more leftists are anti-Semites than right-wingers.
I’m on record with my opinion that any number of racists is too many. And it’s possible that there are more Jew-hating liberals in the US than Jew-hating conservatives, although I find it unlikely (unless of course we’re back to assuming any opposition to Israel equates to opposition to Jews, which is simply wrong.)
But I maintain that you have no evidence that the number of Jew-hating liberals is any more than a tiny, despicable minority. And without that evidence, I find your insinuations about the “darlings of the left” or whatever the Benny Morris reference was supposed to accomplish in the first place, insinuations that antisemitism is common on the left, to be needlessly inflammatory.
.
:dubious:
What now? The Nazis were human beings advocating for an expansionistic ethnically defined state who stuck certain ethnic minorities into ghettoes and concentration camps. The Zionists, contrary to Nazi-style “anti-Semitic” claims, are also human beings, and they are advocating for an expansionistic ethnically defined state, with another ethnic population in what are somewhat reminiscent of ghettoes. It’s not a very close analogy on examination–Palestine has gained its own government and is not being culled (at least not yet); some Palestinians still hold Israeli citizenship (at least so far)–but it’s not out of nowhere. Racist rhetoric abounds, both “Jewish” and “Arab” populations are growing, and it’s not inconceivable that Israel will move toward eliminationism due to its own internal commitments.
It might be a mistake to see Israel this way, but it’s a mistake rooted in seeing Jews as human beings prone to human foibles. If this is what you think is anti-Semitism, no wonder you think anti-Semitism is endemic.
A stereotypical Nazi says a Jew is not human. A stereotypical Zionist says an Arab is not human. A Leftist says the Nazi, the Zionist, and those they hate & oppress are all human, and the Zionist is wrong in the same way a Nazi is wrong. And that’s “anti-Semitism”?
The present version of his Wikipedia article says that Mitt Romney was a registered Independent before he changed his party affiliation.
Yes, that’s anti-Semitism. Calling Jews Nazis is anti-Semitic. Nazis didn’t just round up people for death, they rounded up Jews (among others, but especially Jews) for death, in an attempt to kill them all. Comparing Jews en masse, or the Jewish nation, to the genocidal murderers who nearly wiped out all the Jews in Europe is indeed anti-Semitic.
It’s a special kind of comparison done for maximum psychological effect, precisely because the Nazis tried to kill all the Jews. That makes it anti-Semitic. Just as saying that accomplishments of Obama are as bad as slavery is racist.
Comparing Zionists to Nazis is anti-Semitic. I’m unaware that the “stereotypical” Zionist says that Arabs are not human, unless this is a stereotype borne out of anti-Semitism (and even though there might be some individual Zionists who say this).
This is a special case. There are lots of special cases in this world. Comparing Jews to those who tried to kill them all is a special case of anti-Semitism.
Okay, Terr is fond of insinuating, I’ll agree with that.
I don’t see how anyone can measure the absolute number of antisemites on either side.
Why should they? Did the U.S. grant Germans and Japanese U.S. citizenship in 1945? The West Bank is under military occupation; the Palestinians living there are not Israeli citizens, and it is absurd to demand that they become such.
If Israel had formally incorporated the West Bank into the state of Israel, you might have a point. But they haven’t, and you don’t.
Now, I am given to expect that a lot of the people equating Zionism to Naziism are anti-Jewish, but I also have to expect that some of them are anti-racists and egalitarian humanists. So, “whenever Israel is compared to the Nazis, that’s pretty clearly anti-Semitic,” is a bit broad.
Oops, sorry, I was unclear.
Well, I did demonstrate my pig ignorance of recent Israeli history a liiiiittle too recently to pretend I didn’t. As for McPherson, I shan’t be reading Battle Cry because I already know that stuff, but he has some intriguing essays I’ll look into. Um, once I pull my head out of the Late Medieval at night and 2000BCE at lunch.
I’m not really sold on those. A person who does not hate Jews can still have chill of recognition when looking at some of the ways the GOVERNMENT of Israel has treated some of the Palestinians. Death camps, no, but ghettos? Maybe. 
Some of that comes from the American Left, Right, and Middle’s love of the Plucky Underdog, as I believe Terr pointed out. Some comes from our recognition that much of Israel’s Jewish population is actually culturally Western–just like us! :rolleyes: It isn’t some exotic, Oriental place, but a place where friends summered on kibbutzim. A place where a dear friend was born, and which she rarely visited so she could dodge the draft. Maybe in the backs of our minds Israel is something like the sixth Borough of New York. Whatever it is, we invested in it the same Boy Scout attributes we imagine in ourselves, and we expected it to behave like Captain America.
It is totally unfair to a sovereign nation to think of it so unrealistically, but some of us did and were disappointed and angry when Israel did not live up to our childish fantasies. But that did not leave most of us disliking, much less hating, Jewish people in general, Israelis in particular, or even the government of Israel, and I resent any suggestions that we, as a group, do. I would like an apology, but I don’t expect one. All I really ask is that the lion’s share of American Progressives not be lumped in with those psychos in France. They be crazy.
If anyone wants, feel free to click on the links on the post because they clearly demonstrate that the Israeli government has regularly on it’s maps pretendend that “Israel’s easternmost border is the Jordan River”(to quote just about every Israeli PM for the last few decades).
That said, if you want to have a laugh, here is a video put out by the Israeli Ministry of Tourism entitled “Size doesn’t matter”. Take a look at the map of Israel and Jordan shown at the very end of the video.
Beyond that, when Israelis make a point of referring the West Bank as “Judea and Samaria” they are, and I’m confident Alessan will back me up on this, ringing a dog whistle that sounds like a gong in Israel. What they are saying is “this is ours!”.
It’s the same when Syrian maps having the phrase “Southern Syria” over the land on most maps designated as “Lebanon” and when Palestinians have a map which labels all of Israel and the West Bank under the heading “Palestine”.
It’s something that both Israelis and Palestinians engage in to tell each other what they’re thinking while still giving them some excuse to give to their western enablers.
And, Terr, the Daily Beast is hardly Mondoweiss.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/26/draw-the-line-how-israel-erases-itself.html
No, it’s a rhetorical tool used to shame nationalists used for acting like other, worse, nationalists.
Well, maybe that stereotype is more common among anti-Zionists. I don’t think the majority of the population of Tel Aviv say, “Arabs aren’t human.” I’d like to think they don’t. But there have some dubious people on the far right fringe and in past Israeli governments who seem about that racist. It’s a stereotype based on an extremist viewpoint.
Those of us who use that comparison–and I include myself in that, because I am not allergic to shocking rhetoric–are hoping that a majority of Israelis have enough shame not to repeat such crimes. And so far a majority probably do. And we are trying to scold bad actors into recognizing civil rights for Palestinians. And so far, not such good results.
No, they were granted independence very shortly afterward. If Germany was still under military occupation in 1993 you’d have a point, but it wasn’t so you don’t. They also didn’t flood the area with settlers in flagrant violation of international law.
I’m not familiar with any military occupation that has gone on for remotely so long without the residents being granted independence or citizenship.
You also keep claiming they’re under military occupation and ignoring the fact that every Israeli government since 1967 has insisted they aren’t.
Let’s take the Israelis at their word. If the West Bank isn’t under military occupation what justification do they have to claim to be a democracy while refusing to grant citizenship to people the government has ruled for over fifty years who’ve lived there for over 50 years.
Sorry, but for someone who has a problem with comparing South Africa to Israel you’ve used a vastly more “inapt” example, without even bringing up Israel’s historic relationship with South Africa.
True, and the US didn’t impose a “blockade” on Cuba in 1962. They imposed a “quarantine”.
Well, I don’t agree with your views either, so maybe I was unclear as well. 
I’ll add that since you have repeatedly claiming Israel is “occupying” the West Bank, despite the repeated denials of the Israel government your use of the word “formally” makes little sense and is a tad hypocritical, particularly when combined with your strong insistence that Blacks living in South Africans were “citizens” even though the South African government insisted they weren’t.
In my opinion it’s an antisemitic “tool”. You’re free to use it, and if you do, I’ll feel that you are comfortable with antisemitic rhetoric.
I think this is as likely to be effective as those who use racist rhetoric in an (obviously misguided in my view) attempt to supposedly shame black people into less violence or criminality.
The vast majority of black people have done nothing violent, and the vast majority of Jews and Israelis have done nothing at all remotely comparable to Nazis.
That’s why I feel that this comparison is antisemitic. Please think long and hard on this before using it again. Understand, please, that you’re comparing a country of mostly decent folks to the people who murdered several of my relatives that I never got a chance to meet. I don’t feel that that’s any more reasonable than blaming all black people for the crimes of a very few.
There are plenty of non-antisemitic ways to criticize specific policies if Israel.
You put it in quotes, but I asked you and you couldn’t cite even one such speech.
There you go again. This video has nothing to do with Israeli Ministry of Tourism. It was created by some Canadian Jewish student group. As a joke.
That is what the Jewish names for those areas is. And were for a couple of thousand years. This is not something new. What do you expect them to call it? Those are disputed territories. On any official map showing borders, they would show as controlled by Israel, since that is the truth.
Two of your links were from mondoweiss - a notorious hate site. Try to be more discerning in the future.
Uh, they’re holding a guide book put out by the Israeli Ministry of Tourism which showed the entire territory west of the Jordan River labeled as Israel. Beyond that I already provided links to the Israeli Ministry of Tourism doing exactly that.
Leaving aside the hilarity of you accusing someone of “hate” you’re claiming it’s racist?
Uh, you declared that speeches didn’t count because you claimed that was merely campaign rhetoric. As you well know it would be pathetically easy to find such quotes.
Hell, just look at a book written by Benjamin Netanyahu called “Israel: A Place Amongst the Nations” written prior to him becoming PM.
Or of course you can look at the Likud Party’s platform, which has been running Israel for most of the past few decades.
Thank you for conceding that Israel claims to control the territories as it’s own since that’s what is meant by “disputed territories”. Territories in which at least two different groups claim to control.