Wrong.
I think this view is a big part of the difference of views here, and it’s quite wrong.
It is perfectly possible to believe that Israel is problematic as a nation and not be anti-Semitic. Now, as **Ibn Warraq **points out, there are ways you might assess the real motivation. If you otherwise believe in ethnic nationalism or self-determination, you might be hypocritical on your views of Israel. If your views are based on bad history of the Zionist movement, this might also be a sign that your bias is a problem–though note that people on both sides often have ignorant views of the history, as demonstrated in this thread.
If I criticize the notion of the Republic of Crimea or South Sudan as a nation am I anti-Crimean or anti-Sudanese? No, obviously not. While criticism of Israel as a nation may be chiefly the province of bigots, there is no logically necessary relationship there.
It’s interesting you put it this way, because another thing comes to mind that I’ve always found fascinating with the liberals on this board. Is it perfectly possible to believe that Islam is problematic as a set of beliefs and not be automatically labeled a racist? On this board, it isn’t.
Anyway, no one said being against Israeli’s policies mean you’re anti-semitic.
Even if that were analogous (and it isn’t), it isn’t true. I guarantee that I could open a thread criticizing the Islamic belief about, say, opposition to interest-based banking or the idea that Muhammad’s victories in battle were a result of divine intervention, and I would not be called a racist. What I cannot do is open a thread in which I rail against a belief that is not actually an Islamic belief that I falsely ascribe to Muslims, or argue that a particular Islamic belief is uniquely bad when it is held by many other religions.
I was responding to adaher’s explicit claim that “Anti-Israel is anti-semetic.”
Again, Benny Morris, the revisionist historian who was the darling of anti-Israeli leftists:
“The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies - much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two.”
And he knows what he’s talking about. He was in those circles for a long long time.
No, not always is being anti-Israel anti-Semitic. But it very often is.
If being anti-Israel is not anti-semetic, then being anti-Mexico is not anti-Mexican. So all the hubbub about Trump is misplaced.
This is the same argument you just made. Did you forget?
No, I just didn’t see it in this thread. Did I put it in another thread by mistake? I’m not seeing it on this page.
You’re arguing that if anti-Israel does not mean anti-Semitic, then it must be that being anti-country can never mean you’re anti-ethnic group.
The logic is terrible whether you substitute Jamaica or Mexico, and I responded specifically to the point, which you simply asserted again.
I’d never heard of Benny Morris before this thread (or at least not that I recall), but then I still know virtually nothing about Saul Alinsky and yet many right-wingers have gleefully accused me of slavishly adoring him. It’s amazing how many people there are I mindlessly follow without noticing they even exist.
Also, I still don’t know who “The Left” are, so I can’t opine on what they believe. I have no trouble believing there are left-wing anti-Semites (insofar as you could type “gay Republican dwarfs who eat Marmite and play bocce” and probably find a relevant chatroom) but I’m still not convinced anti-Semitism is any more intrinsic to whomever “The Left” are than it is to “The Right”.
Some (and possibly most) people are assholes. Everything else is just details.
Oh, well yes, because I’m not satisfied that most posters would actually be willing to apply that standard to any country not named Israel.
Disliking a country’s government or leaders is fine. By that standard, I’m not a fan of about 150 countries. But disliking the country itself? I think it’s a worthy subject for debate, so I’m not totally disagreeing with you, but I doubt that most people would accept your contention. We do it with Israel becuase israel is treated as unique in many ways, and supporters do it as well as detractors. But IMO, you can’t be against the Jewish state and not be against Jews. But if that’s so, can I be against Arabs having their own states and it not being anti-Arab?
Yes, of course you can, depending on the circumstances.
I offered the example of the Republic of Crimea as one that I would have thought would receive near-universal agreement.
But we could come up with hypothetical examples as well. For example, you can oppose the idea of founding a Palestinian state in Israeli territory and not be anti-Palestinian. I would have thought that quite obvious.
Demonizing Israel is anti-Semitic, in general. Opposing specific policies of the Israeli government is not, in general.
Speaking for myself, I often apply higher standards to countries I think ought to do better. If I criticize the US and not, say, Yemen, it’s not that I think Yemen is better than the US; it’s that I have higher expectations of the US. If I complain that Israel is overly harsh in its treatment of the Palestinians, it’s not that I’m fine with the Palestinians shooting rockets at nurseries; it’s that Israel is a stable sovereign nation whose actions are being carried out by an organized military at the government’s bidding and which could demonstrate more restraint than it does, whereas Gaza is a shithole only loosely run by a nominal government with absolutely no control over many of the different well-armed and violent factions within the territory. (That’s by way of example, mind you.)
You could be in theory (not that I am), but I suspect it’s a very small percentage of the people who actually voice that view.
Yes. Quite easily.
Not to mention that Trump’s now famous comments were aimed at Mexicans, not at Mexico, so you needn’t even appeal to the bad logic. The statement contains a factual error.
I just had an interesting thought, concerning anti-Israel vs anti-semitism.
I am not anti-semitic. I’m half Jewish (although totally non-religious), so half my family is Jewish, including many people such as my father that I’m very close to. There’s never been a time in my life when fewer than 30% or so of my closest friends were Jews. Throw in my family and a TON of the people I love and respect most in the world are Jews.
I’m also generally pro-Israel. I think that Israel has generally been trying to make the best of a shitty situation, and its actions have been far closer to “good” than the actions of the various Palestinian and Arab-in-general groups it has been dealing with.
So… what’s my point?
There’s no way I will ever become anti-semitic in the future (barring hypotheticals in which I actually become insane). But I certainly could become anti-Israel, depending on what Israel does. My pro-vs-anti Israel stance is contingent on what actions the Israeli government takes, and could certainly change and change back on a more or less daily basis. My not-being-anti-semitic stance is based on, well, the fact that I’m not a racist stereotyping ignoramus, and won’t realistically change no matter what.
All of which together makes me fairly sympathetic to the idea that it’s easily possible to criticize or oppose Israel without being anti-semitic.
Anyhow, for anyone who subscribes to the basic idea that the left is anti-semitic, could you do us the courtesy of being a bit more clear what you mean and who you’re talking about? Are you talking about the 40% of Americans who generally like Obama and whose spokesperson, more than anyone else, is Jon Stewart? Or are talking about the 0.5% of Americans who live in Berkeley and protest G8 summits? And whichever group you’re talking about, how prevalent do you think anti-semitism is in that group? Is it a defining characteristic? Or is it something that is more present there than in the US as a whole, even if it’s just 3% vs 1%? How much of it is anti-Israeli-sentiment-with-a-penumbra-of-anti-semitism vs actually-distrusts-their-Jewish-neighbor? It’s hard to meaningfully address any of these claims without knowing specifically what they are.
I don’t think anyone (in this thread) is arguing that being against Israeli policy is necessarily anti-Semitic. Their argument, as I understood it, is that being against the legitimacy of the Israeli state, or at least thinking it was/is a bad idea, is necessarily anti-Semitic.
That is, at least, a closer call than the other distinction. But I think it’s pretty clear that one can be “anti-Israel” in the latter sense without being an anti-Semite, even if those who are anti-Israel in that sense are unreasonable or historically ignorant or whatever.
I think Israeli’s are free to call themselves whatever they want. But getting other countries to recognize you as such is, I presume, different. I assume that Palestine would recognize the state of Israel at some point but they may be put off by being asked to recognize it as the Holy Empire of Jewish Israel. From similar topics in the past, Israel seems to want something closer to the latter than the former and they have held up peace talks because of that. That’s the kind of behavior I’m not ok with.
None from the clergy you mean, or an active rabbi? Isn’t that like saying the US doesn’t have religious litmus test for presidents but we just happened to have 44 Christian presidents in a row?
Anyhoo, as a pretty left of the center guy, I may be giving fuel to the idiots but I do think that Jews control the world. However, the difference between me and the crazy people is that I like it that way. The world’s generally a pretty decent place now compared to the past. If Jews control Hollywood, banks, politics, then let them, they are doing a pretty good job!
Hell, I’m inclined to think Israel was ( not is ) a bad idea, or at least let’s say I am ambivalent about it as it was conceived. I think the practical motivation is tough to argue against, but philosophically I don’t much care for ethno-religious nationalism.
But I’m still weakly pro-Israel insomuch as I am anything. Ibn Warraq’s view notwithstanding it’s a flawed but weakly functional democracy under siege and arguments against its continued existence now are just idiocy. Whether it was a good idea to begin with or not, you can’t unscramble eggs.
But I’m pretty comfortable separating my views on Israel as a historical construct/concept from Israel as a reality in the here and now.
I’ll just let that post/username combo sit there for a moment.
