Nolan-ise The Rest of The Batman Universe

[Boozahol_Squid_P.I]

@Terrifel

He does? I just watched two trailers on YouTube, and I saw no evidence of that. If anything, it seems like Ledger’s performance is a careful homage to Nicholson’s Joker, right down to the clipped, hoarse delivery and mannerisms. I kept waiting for him to growl: “Winged freak… ‘terrorizes?’ Wait’ll they get a load of me…”

Perhaps I just don’t remember the original Joker well enough: I remember Joker doing the playful bits, like the televeision commercial for the Joker vecom (Smiley?), the hand-buzzer frying of the guy in the board room, or the ‘slashin’ to the oldies’ in the art museum’ bit. The sort of high, manic Joker that’s probably best suited for younger audiences. This seemed much more like the sort of joker who would kidnap Jim Gordan just to show him pictures of a naked, shot-up Babs Gordon.

I would argue that the maniacal, sociopathic killer aspect was never the defining characteristic of the Joker; otherwise he’d be interchangeable with Mr. Szasz or any of the arch, taunting Dennis Hopper-clone psychopaths in recent suspense movies.

Perhaps it’s that he’s manic in his sociopathic killings. The guy really does seem to enjoy them, in a way that other killers very rarely are featured in doing so. Or perhaps it’s because in the Joker’s own strange way, he’s very sane. Zsasz kills as part of a compulsion to fill his body up with tally marks. He has some sort of motivating factor which drives him to murder. The Joker doesn’t hear voices in his head telling him to kill people, nor does he fail to realize what he is doing to people (like, say Grundy). If the Joker has any sort of motivation for his killings, it’s to piss off Batman. I don’t know… what aspects of the Joker do you think are key to his character?

[shy_guy]

I am a little concerned that they left too much whimsy out of this take on the Joker. That’s really what makes the character, for me - just how much fun he has while doing horrible things (whether it be murder or dangling Batman above a shark tank). From the trailers, I’m not really seeing a lot that strikes me as particularly Joker-y, and I’m already not thrilled with his appearance (although what bubastis posted has me more at ease).

[Terrifel]

@Diomedes

Perhaps it’s that he’s manic in his sociopathic killings. The guy really does seem to enjoy them, in a way that other killers very rarely are featured in doing so. Or perhaps it’s because in the Joker’s own strange way, he’s very sane. Zsasz kills as part of a compulsion to fill his body up with tally marks. He has some sort of motivating factor which drives him to murder. The Joker doesn’t hear voices in his head telling him to kill people, nor does he fail to realize what he is doing to people (like, say Grundy). If the Joker has any sort of motivation for his killings, it’s to piss off Batman. I don’t know… what aspects of the Joker do you think are key to his character?

I think the element of ironic disfigurement is very central to the Joker. The character was originally inspired by Victor Hugo’s The Man Who Laughs, and this association has been reinforced repeatedly in the comics over the decades. He’s not just any random, unmotivated psychopath with a gimmick: he was driven to embrace the Joker identity because of his hideous clownlike appearance, a comedy mask that he can’t ever remove.

The disfigurement effectively created the Joker. Whatever sort of anonymous criminal he may have been beforehand, it seems unlikely that he would have ever been driven to become Batman’s arch-foe in the absence of that catalyst. While he does seem to relish his atrocities, it’s all done in the service of a larger theatrical context. His motivation is attention-- it’s all about the showmanship of the crime, whether he is performing for society at large or for an audience of one. It’s been suggested that the Joker wouldn’t commit crimes at all if it weren’t for the attention he gains from Batman and others, and I think that may be the heart of the character. He’s trapped in a role that he is compelled to act out.

I recall a series years ago-- maybe from Legends of the Dark Knight, actually-- in which the Joker believed that he actually had killed Batman, and he just had no idea what to do after that. He knew that he could never top that performance; so he simply quit, got cosmetic surgery, and started a fresh new life. (Of course it turned out that Batman wasn’t really dead; and as soon as the Joker found out, his insanity immediately resurfaced. Good one, Batman.)

[bubastis]

Thing is… does this new Batman universe lend itself to the overall DC universe? Look how marvel is starting to group all it’s superheroes into one continuity in its movies, starting with Iron Man and The Incredible Hulk… If Superman showed up in the next Batman movie, would it wash? Would it make sense?

Also, as for the Joker… It seems like Heath copied bits and pieces form all previous Jokers, and at the same time created something completly new. Of course, we’ll have to see the movie to be sure, but from the trailers two scenes pop out;

1: “A little fight in you? I like that…” is pure Jack Nicholson, while

2: There’s a short snippet of the Joker firing a rocket launcer of some sort, with a little kick-dance and giggle, which is just SO Caeser Romero.

Here’s a link to a Joker pic you guys may not have seen; it’s taken from the new movie, so it may or may not be spoilerish in nature (it’s not a dead main character, or anything like that… in fact, it’s not spoilerish at all, seeing as I can’t put it in context AT ALL) so click at your peril!

Damn…Ledger was one handsome man, I’ll say that much.

[Derleth]

@Diomedes

Perhaps it’s that he’s manic in his sociopathic killings. The guy really does seem to enjoy them, in a way that other killers very rarely are featured in doing so. Or perhaps it’s because in the Joker’s own strange way, he’s very sane. Zsasz kills as part of a compulsion to fill his body up with tally marks. He has some sort of motivating factor which drives him to murder. The Joker doesn’t hear voices in his head telling him to kill people, nor does he fail to realize what he is doing to people (like, say Grundy). If the Joker has any sort of motivation for his killings, it’s to piss off Batman. I don’t know… what aspects of the Joker do you think are key to his character?

Joker and Batman are commonly thought of as two sides of the same coin, but it’s more like two possible paths away from the same realization: The World Does Not Make Sense. Joker reacts to that by trying to destroy even the illusion of order and to bring total chaos to the world. Batman reacts to that by trying to create an order as many people can live with as possible, even though it is ultimately a lie. Joker, due to his disfigurement, had his identity stripped from him and so has no psychological ground to stand on. Batman, due to his convictions, has a preternaturally strong identity founded on his role as a preserver of order, and cannot stand to see that order seriously challenged. Finally, of course, Joker is a sadist and absolutely requires to be both noticed and in control, and his crimes give him a way to exert control over Batman (as well as all of the sheep).

Ah, the dividends of One Bad Day…

[Argent_Towers]

@bubastis

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/CoopThePirate/b_18524.jpg

Damn…Ledger was one handsome man, I’ll say that much.

He’s got an M1 rifle!

[devilsknew]

@bubastis

The Penguin

The Penguin was never a physical match for Batman, so why try portray him as such? Much better to have him as a Mob Boss of some standing, with many henchmen at his beck and call. Danny De Vito gave great penguin in Batman Returns, but would a deformed testicle with legs, controlling a flock of Penguins really wash in Nolan’s version of Batman? Instead, I propose a ruthless Arms Dealer, connoisseur of fine wines and cigars, complete with Monocle and, if you must, webbed hands, who crosses paths with batman when ol’ Batty starts turning his sights on the gun trade in Gotham. Sword in Umbrella has GOT to stay. For this job, I propose Jim Broadbent. Too old? Ok, Ralph Fiennes.

Crispin Glover as the Penguin. That’s who it needs. He already has experience with the concealed sword play and fly by wire from Charlie’s Angel’s. Can’t contend with his acting skills and the life he would bring to a reimagined modern penguin.

[devilsknew]

Now that I think about it, Crispin Glover would play a great Riddler or Penguin.

[FriarTed]

There was a fan-movement to get Glover chosen for the Joker. I can see him as the Riddler but I want my Penguin at least a bit tubby.

[Czarcasm]

I think De Vito could do the Penguin, if you left off the makeup from his previous try.

[bubastis]

@devilsknew

Now that I think about it, Crispin Glover would play a great Riddler or Penguin.

Robin Williams has been trying to play the Riddler for AGES. I think he was extremley close to getting it for Batman Forever, until the then white-hot Jim Carrey snagged the role.

Seeing as how Williams has proven he can do creepy/ not nice (One Hour Photo, Insomnia), and worked with Christopher Nolan (Insomnia), could it be his time? Again, How would this real-world Riddler play? What kind of criminal leaves notes and clues behind him? A kidnapper, sure. Or a serial killer, like Jigsaw from the Saw Movies. Somebody stealing our thoughts via Cable TV (or whatever the hell Jim Carrey was doing in BTM 4VR) probably won’t get on screen in Nolan’s world.

And what about vehicles? The new Batmobile was probably the most functional yet, insofar as it was a converted military super-humvee. The Drak Knight appears to have a similar vehicle, except in Bike form. Will we see a Batwing? it’s not beyond the realms of possiblity, given all the toys Lucius Fox has at his disposal.

it probably wont be refered to as a Bat-wing, or indeed bat-anything… that was one thing from batman Begins, they seem to think if they didnt give anything a name, it seems less silly. So although they showed up, there was no reference to bat-cave, bat-signal, batmobile… even the utility belt was refered to as a “utility harness”.

It’s political correctness gone mad!!

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Derleth

Joker and Batman are commonly thought of as two sides of the same coin, but it’s more like two possible paths away from the same realization: The World Does Not Make Sense. Joker reacts to that by trying to destroy even the illusion of order and to bring total chaos to the world. Batman reacts to that by trying to create an order as many people can live with as possible, even though it is ultimately a lie. Joker, due to his disfigurement, had his identity stripped from him and so has no psychological ground to stand on. Batman, due to his convictions, has a preternaturally strong identity founded on his role as a preserver of order, and cannot stand to see that order seriously challenged. Finally, of course, Joker is a sadist and absolutely requires to be both noticed and in control, and his crimes give him a way to exert control over Batman (as well as all of the sheep).

Ah, the dividends of One Bad Day…

Are you saying that Batman isn’t a sadist? Which Batman, exactly, would that be?

[RikWriter]

@Skald the Rhymer

Are you saying that Batman isn’t a sadist? Which Batman, exactly, would that be?

Actually, I’d say Batman was a masochist.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@RikWriter

Actually, I’d say Batman was a masochist.

In the sense that masochists torture other people, yes, Batman is a masochist. In a similar sense, Tony Stark is a anarchist.

[Terrifel]

Okay, this one’s a bit of a stretch:

Man-Bat. * Dr. Kirk Langstrom… physician… scientist… searching for a way to tap into the hidden bat that all humans have… *

Or, not. Langstrom could be a pharmaceutical researcher who also happens to be an avid spelunker. He’s always been fascinated by bats, and his choice to work in Gotham was due in no small part to the elaborate network of caverns beneath the city, which he explores in his spare time. His boyhood interest in bats and cave exploratation also contributed toward his current avenue of research: a simple, concentrated rabies immunization to supplant the current multi-injection therapy.

However, his experimental cure has an unexpected side-effect: temporarily enhanced strength and agility. The serum is also addictive, as Langstrom discovers, and repeated use causes more extreme side effects to manifest, such as berserker rage and hypersensitivity to light and sound. Eventually Langstrom develops an out-of-control Jekyll/Hyde split personality, ultimately destroying his family life.

Langstrom discovers that his research has been stolen and is being marketed as a street drug by Gotham crime cartels, and he decides to mete out his own brand of vengeance. Since the Gotham underworld is already spooked by the Batman, Langstrom fashions his own Bat-suit to conceal his identity-- but his version is much more monstrous in appearance, designed explicitly to terrorize. Soon witnesses are claiming to have seen the Batman commit multiple horrible murders across the city, and the police force once again turns against the vigilante as a result.

To clear his own name, Batman must track down this impostor; but this proves difficult, as Langstrom is using his expert knowledge of subterranean Gotham to evade capture. They spar a few times, and Batman discovers to his dismay that his martial arts skills are matched by Langstrom’s drug-fueled physique and hyper-keen senses. And then Langstrom stumbles on a remarkable discovery… a twisting passage leading into a large cave beneath Wayne Manor…

In summary: instead of a literal man-bat hybrid, Man-Bat is presented as the Anti-Batman, with elements of Bane, Prometheus, Killer Moth and Azrael mixed in.

[RikWriter]

@Skald the Rhymer

In the sense that masochists torture other people, yes, Batman is a masochist. In a similar sense, Tony Stark is a anarchist.

No, Batman is a masochist in the sense that he seems to enjoy getting the shit beat out of him. And in the sense that he won’t kill any of his foes, so they always wind up getting out of prison to beat the shit out of him yet again.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@RikWriter

No, Batman is a masochist in the sense that he seems to enjoy getting the shit beat out of him. And in the sense that he won’t kill any of his foes, so they always wind up getting out of prison to beat the shit out of him yet again.

Nah. He’s a conflicted sadist. He really wants to go on a killing spree to avenge his parents, blaming himself for causing their deaths because he had not resolved his Oedipal desires to do Mama hard & long before the Chill incident. Anywhistle, all the thugs he beats up for…um… “information” are, in his sick head, really versions of Thomas Wyane. Morever, he denies himself sexual release with Catwoman and other available hotties because of his guilt over wanting to take breast-feeding to the next level.

None of you guys work for Time-Warner, right?

[Maus_Magill]

@Skald the Rhymer

Nah. He’s a conflicted sadist. He really wants to go on a killing spree to avenge his parents, blaming himself for causing their deaths because he had not resolved his Oedipal desires to do Mama hard & long before the Chill incident. Anywhistle, all the thugs he beats up for…um… “information” are, in his sick head, really versions of Thomas Wyane. Morever, he denies himself sexual release with Catwoman and other available hotties because of his guilt over wanting to take breast-feeding to the next level.

None of you guys work for Time-Warner, right?

Coming soon: Ang Lee’s Batman.

[RikWriter]

@Skald the Rhymer

Nah. He’s a conflicted sadist. He really wants to go on a killing spree to avenge his parents, blaming himself for causing their deaths because he had not resolved his Oedipal desires to do Mama hard & long before the Chill incident. Anywhistle, all the thugs he beats up for…um… “information” are, in his sick head, really versions of Thomas Wyane. Morever, he denies himself sexual release with Catwoman and other available hotties because of his guilt over wanting to take breast-feeding to the next level.

None of you guys work for Time-Warner, right?

:dubious:
Uh-huh.

Whatever you say.

[Derleth]

Batman is a fascist, sure, but he isn’t a sadist in the same way Joker is. Sadists, at least those with Sadistic Personality Disorder, demand attention for their actions, whereas Batman has always tried to remain a rumor, something that terrifies precisely because nobody quite knows who (or what) it is. He might be a sexual sadist, but that isn’t the same thing.