I just needed a shorthand for “A Proposal that requires a Unanimous Yes to be Accepted”. I guess I could have called it Unanimous Proposal instead of Crucial Proposal. Would that be clearer?
Ack! You’re right! Thank you! This wasn’t a problem when Periods were called Days. Okay, the four parts of a Turn are now called phases.
Impact is a means of quantifying how much effect a change to the Glossary would have. Originally, I figured a change to a definition like “Turn” or “Proposal” would be so important that it should require a Unanimous Yes to pass, so I said any Proposal involving a Game Change with Impact greater than 2 was a Crucial Proposal. Then later I decided that this was making things complicated, and such changes might actually be kind of fun, so I took that part out. But I left the definition of Impact so that we can easily put something like that back in if we want.
There is always, in any game of Nomic, a pre-game metagame during which the initial players decide, by consensus, on what the initial rules of the Game will be.
We’re discussing which rules we want to start with. Remember last game when zev decided to start the game right away and work out any bad rules within the game? Then he realized that there were problems with the rules that probably should have been worked out before the game started? So he tried to start over? Then at the end of the first round it became clear that some players thought he had actually started the game over, and some didn’t? And it took us 150 posts to get through the first vote?
I do. It’s especially important now since these rules have never been used before.
Not really, if that would have kept it in the Glossary, which is my main point of contention. In my mind, all of the Rules we should be following should be listed in the body of text marked Rules. if it’s not in the Rules, it isn’t something we need to pay attention to. The Glossary would merely be a convenient place to find the definition of something mentioned in the Rules.
I would suggest amending Rules 210 and 220 as follows:
*210. Proposal Acceptance
A Proposal is Accepted if and only if it achieves a Simple Majority.
If a Proposal has been marked Crucial, it requires a Unanimous YES Vote Outcome.
Crucial Proposals
Proposals which involve one or more of the following are
Crucial Proposals: direct changes to the Player List; changes which
directly affect more than one existing Rule. A Proposal is not Crucial
unless it is explicitly stated to be so.*
And I’d modify the Term “Majority” to “Simple Majority”, to avoid confusion.
I’m wavering on whether or not to move the Vote Acceptance definitions (such as Majority, Unanimous YES, etc.) into the Rules or not. Technically, according to my above argument, they should be in the Rules, but as long as they’re all listed somewhere with definitions, it should be fine.
I’ll go ahead and change Majority to Simple Majority, a little later. As for the Crucial Proposal business, I certainly agree with you in principle. And I’m not saying I disagree with your solution, but I think there may be a better way. I want to keep Rules out the Glossary, but I also want to keep definitions out of the Rules. I hate having to read through rule lists with things like this (Agora Nomic 1478/5(b)):
It’s not completely intuitive, and you need to know what it means, but it could go in the Glossary.
How about this. Just remove the term Crucial Proposal and add the term Requisite Outcome:
Requisite Outcome - A Vote Outcome which is necessary and sufficient for a Proposal put to a Vote to receive in order for that Proposal to be Accepted.
Then combine Rules 210 and 220 into one:
210. Proposal Acceptance
Unanimous Yes is the Requisite Outcome for Proposals which involve one or more of the following: direct changes to the Player List; changes which directly affect more than one existing Rule. For all other Proposals, the Requisite Outcome is Simple Majority.
I took a trip down Memory Lane and reread the other Nomic thread we had. Wow.
Sure, I’ll join this one. I’ll go sign up to the Yahoo group now. Are we going to be restricting discussion to one board or the other? Using both is going to be downright confusing. Or actual proposal/voting on the Yahoo and everything else here?
I was expecting we’d keep everything there at Yahoo!. We have more control and latitude there. If people would prefer it here, though, I will email the MPSIMS moderators on our behalf and see what they have to say.
And I disagree, as I hate having to read a Rule, and then having to go somewhere else to figure out what the words in the Rule means. In my mind, it is unintuitive to not define what a word or phrase means when you use it, though it shouldn’t be defined every time the words get used, merely the Rule that introduces the concept.
However, in the interest of the game, I’m willing to go along with it. The new wording of Rule 210 is satisfactory, and I can work with it.
I would advise conducting the business of the game on the mailing list, if for no other reason than that I don’t want to miss something because the hamsters took the day off (as they have been wont to do lately).
BTW, brahesilver, you can subscribe to a thread by clicking on the “Thread Tools” box at the top of the thread and selecting “Subscribe”.
Okay, I appreciate this, and I hope that we soon see the Rules and Terms changed to something that you approve of. I think I feel kind of the same way, that the Rules could maybe use a little more improvement, but that there’s no problem in them so big it will bring the game to a screeching halt.
With that in mind, I’d like to get started, so my next post (simulposted on the Yahoo! group) will be the official announcement I made earlier. Because the poll on Yahoo! is right now in a dead heat, I’ll leave it just in GMT but note here that
00:00 GMT 29 Jan 2004
= 7:00PM Eastern US 28 Jan 2004
= 6:00PM Central US 28 Jan 2004
= 4:00PM Pacific US 28 Jan 2004
The game starts at 00:00 GMT 29 Jan 2004. The Registrar for the game is Cosmologicon [cpilman@cfa.harvard.edu]. All Votes, Proposals, Judgments, and general declarations will be made as posts or emails [glonomic@yahoogroups.com] to the Yahoo! Group glonomic [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/glonomic/]. The Status Board will be maintained by the Registrar in the Files section of this group, and may be mirrored at another place, linked to in the Links section this group. Anyone wishing to play should join this group and express their desire to play; joining the group alone is not enough, and people may join with the intention of watching and commenting. A potential Player may request any Player Name; if none is requested, their Yahoo! ID will be their Player Name. The duration of a Period is 24 hours. In the case of an Emergency, the Registrar may alter the text of this Rule only to the end of maintaining the game.
Turn 1 started a couple of minutes ago, 00:00 GMT 29 Jan 2004. By random selection, Peristarkawan is the Proponent for Turn 1, and so minimafilm is assigned the role of Judge. I have updated the Status Board to reflect this.
The Proposing phase of Turn 1 starts now. Peristarkawan has two days to make a Proposal or a Waiver.
With that, I suggest we let this thread die, and continue all discussion in the Yahoo! Group. People are still welcome to join even if they don’t want to play (yet). Thanks everyone for your help getting started; I hope it works out.
It’s especially important now since these rules have never been used before.