Remember I mentioned noticing how my American coworkers behaved differently at home and abroad?
The distance was one of those things. Almost every single American would stand closer and/or seem to take up more of my personal space when we were in the USA. Some were just more huggy, more likely to grab me by the arm or pass a hand over my shoulders; others felt more invasive. Please: if you’re speaking with a foreigner and (s)he takes a step back, do not step in! I know you’re being friendly, but it can feel very, very invasive to many of us. By the time someone is stepping back it means they can’t stop themselves, you’re frightening them; they’re not trying to distance themselves from your position but from you. Stay where you are and the conversation will go a lot better.
There were two guys who surprised me because they were both large guys yet didn’t invade my space at all. One, who would stand very close but wasn’t invasive, was black and had lived abroad for several years (he’d met his wife abroad); the other one turned out to be born in Armenia and have lived in Lebanon for much of his childhood, before the family migrated again to the USA (he didn’t have any foreign accent anybody could detect, people were very surprised to hear he was an immigrant). Both were exceptionally good at dealing with aksents, reading between the lines to see where the problem was a cultural misunderstanding or badly-chosen word rather than an actual difference of opinion, etc.
As the figures are for the whole of Greater London, I wonder what would happen to the figures if you were to include Orange County as well? Also, if you’re talking about diversity, then it’s about the spread of locations from where they’ve come, not simply numbers of immigrants. I strongly suspect Los Angeles’ statistics are more heavily dominated by fewer countries.
Now this one is shocking. Everytime I go overseas one of the first things I notice is how little personal space people have compared to in the US. Granted, I notice this most in Asia, not Europe. But I have been a few places in Europe where people seemed to be crowding you all the time. Istanbul was the worst, but Vienna and London were pretty bad as well.
They do when they’re in the US. It would seem very strange to run into a Canadian here and have them say “I’m from Canada” rather than the province name or city.
Personally, I adjust what I say depending on who I’m talking to. I do tend to lean towards “I’m from Michigan” or “I’m from Detroit” if I think it won’t confuse the person, just because I think of myself as a citizen of those places more so than I do of America. Usually people just respond by asking about Robocop.
Meyer, I lived in the Czech Republic like you did (in Prague, though, not in a small town) and I’m going to have to disagree with you on this. I think Canadians might be mistaken for Americans because, well, they don’t really have any cultural traits of their own (d&r :p) but I think people don’t have a really hard time distinguishing between loud American tourists and a pack of drunken British lads over for a weekend of cheep beer and ditto sex. People in Eastern Europe do know that English is spoken in more places than just in the US.
When I was last in Bratislava they were certainly well aware of the nationalities of their many drunken English tourists and were quite happy to tell you all about how they felt about them.
I was about to say, “you’ve completely missed Hostile Dialect’s point”, when I think I realized where the all this disconnect is coming from.
Priceguy, you think of yourself as being from X country, right? As in, your identity, how you think about yourself? You’d say, “I’m from X” in general conversation, not “I’m from Africa.”
Americans are fiercely proud of being American, that is true. But to the average American (if such a thing exists):
#1 - They are from Ireland. (Their grandparents emigrated from there.) #2 - They live in Texas. (Texas is far larger than most of the countries in Europe, and has a very distinct culture.) #3 - Their country is America, land of the free, home of the brave.
When asked a general question about their basic identity, you’ll get back either #1 or #2, depending on how you phrased the question. That’s how they think about themselves. It’s not that they’re assuming that the US is the default, it’s that it never entered into the equation.
I knew a girl who grew up in the Soviet Union. If asked about her accent, she would say that she’s Ukrainian. It’s the same thing.
Yes, some of my American friends mentioned that too; it did lead to a conversation where everybody from Europe, Africa and South America claimed the Americans took up more of our personal space, while the Americans claimed that people in our homes got closer (and yes, we did agree with them that we did - but it didn’t feel so invasive). I think it isn’t so much physical distance as how you treat it, I don’t know how to call it other than “aura” with my apologies for the hippie term. Most Europeans can put their arm over my shoulders or around my waist without me flinching (although I’m not a toucher at all), most Americans make me jump if they so much as point at my screen, without touching me at all.
The Europeans who make me jump when they’re so much as in the same room tend to be either bossy or agressive consultant types. The ones who make me jump if they touch me are either sleazy or part of the previous group.
It’s not at all - that’s a factual answer. When the Soviet Union existed, it was still a Ukranian accent. As for describing her place of birth, using the present-day location makes perfect sense.
I agree with this, as there’s no reason to belittle others’ cultural heritage because their parents didn’t end up in a town so openly hostile to their culture. There are a lot of us out there that grew up in families that held on to the “old culture” and passed it down to subsequent generations while participating in groups that foster the understanding and fellowship of people from the same cultural background. Is it so hard to get that some of us out there identify as a certain ethnic group because it’s how our worldview is shaped?
As for “American as a specific ethnic identity”, I’d say that it needs qualification. I live in Florida, which is a huge state with really different cultural attitudes depending upon where you’re living. I grew up in South Florida, where fast, loud, rude, and impersonal could be adjectives applied readily to at least a handful of the people I’d see on a day-to-day basis. I went to college in Northern Florida near the panhandle, and it took me about six months to start getting used to Southern culture (“South Georgia” to pinpoint it more clearly). I still don’t quite “get” some of the aspects of Southern culture, but I do try when faced with what often appears as a strange and new viewpoint/practice. After college, I ended up in Central Florida, which, in my area, has two major strains of culture running up against each other: “Cracker”* culture and pan-Hispanic culture. Being part of neither culture, I observe from “the outside” quite often where the two intersect in some areas and then in other areas conflict so heavily that it causes misunderstandings. Now, there are other areas of Florida that don’t fit into any of these molds; for example, from my impressions of Gulf Coast Florida, I’d say that they’re a lot more relaxed in a “take it easy” way than the other three I’d mentioned, but I can’t really pinpoint a whole lot more than that. However, I’m just trying to point out that, even in just one state (albeit a large one), we’ve got multiple very different and distinct cultures and ways of doing things coming out of that area. If we bring it to a nationwide scale, it is much more like trying to compare the United States with the European Union than, say, the United States with the United Kingdom.
[sub]*The folks who’ve lived here for generations are descended from the cracker cattle farmers. It’s a distinct breed of cattle, and it’s a little bit of Southern culture but with its own unique Florida twist. [/sub]
Yes - the Ukraine still existed at the time of the Soviet Union, just not as an independent nation. It’s analogous to somebody describing themselves Québécois to indicate they were born there, not that their grandparents were.
You should’ve seen the look on my face the first time one of my Turkish friends reached over and kissed me on my cheeks. Americans actually desire a great deal of personal space, so I’m unsure if Spaniards just really have an even bigger personal space bubble, or if you happened to meet some very huggy Americans. In my experience, Europeans like to get right up on top of you.
The more back-and-forth I hear and read the more disgusted I am with the whole ‘cultural heritage’ debate. Why can’t we be proud to be whatever the hell we are? I see no conflict between my multiple cultural identities. And yeah, I pick up a note (or more than a note) of Eurocentrism in the ‘name three Australian’ cities type of gripe. I might not be able to name 3 Australian cities, but I could name 3 Turkish cities, no problem. Am I not internationally literate until I learn all the capitols of European nations? Australia’s 3 biggest ports? Canada’s provinces?
Life is a lot easier if you try not to take offense at things that you are completely sure aren’t meant to be offensive. Just because their actions show a lack of tact doesn’t mean you have to be… well… hostile about it.
Good lord, completely agreed. Not so much in Western Europe (esp. Britain), but Eastern Europeans aren’t happy until they’re practically on top of you. My host mom in Bulgaria (a country that’s culturally very similar to Turkey, btw) would back me into a corner until I finally had to put my arms out to keep her from getting closer.
On the other hand, I do hear it consistently said that Americans are much more likely to start telling (and asking) complete strangers about their divorce / kidney stones / retirement funds than Europeans are. Maybe what Nava and others are sensing as an aura of invasion of personal space by Americans is actually a spillover from this unaccustomed level of verbal intimacy.
