I don’t know. A scare quote implies that the quoting person doesn’t necessarily agree with the phrase. But where did the phrase come from? It is implied that it comes from me. I had a “take over” in my post, but not a “just take over”. Neither did I intend it to have that meaning. I suppose he assumed that I really was thinking about it like there would be a “just”, and therefore included it in the quote. And this is fair enough. But at the very least it forces me to state that this word (or meaning) wasn’t in my post. I know that it caused me to go back to check myself.
Its not pleasant, I don’t get why people are being rude because you are concerned about human rights in the world’s worst nation.
But realistically, it would be very hard to overthrow NK w/o tons of collateral damage. There are plutocrats firmly in charge, and the public are brainwashed. Plus NK has a lot of WMD and special forces soldiers they can use against SK and Japan.
Plus, I don’t know what nations want NK overthrown. SK doesn’t want the responsibility to fix the country, it’ll cost them trillions. China likes having NK as a buffer state which they tend to control.
The best thing to hope for is there is an internal coup and NK is taken over by reformers like you had in China in the 70s or Russia in the 80s, and the nation’s civil, human rights, political and economic situation starts to improve. However that is also probably not realistic.
So really what can you do? I guess support efforts to help defectors in China, and support efforts to get information into North Korea. But a military means of bringing down the gov is not realistic.
This may be an absolutely irrational fantasy, but can you imagine what would happen if the North suddenly peacefully dissolved, much like East Germany did with West Germany? That would be the best outcome of all – not that there weren’t problems for Germany.
I don’t think anyone could have anticipated the German outcome much before it happened, yet it did.
Because, for one thing, we cannot be entirely sure the Chinese would be cool with it.
I’d be more okay with every North Korean dead than with South Korea damaged.
Incidentally, a larger human rights catastrophe than North Korea occurred in Darfur last decade. And the war in Congo was even worse. Neither country had nukes and both would have been an order of magnitude or more easier to address than North Korea. Both would have been a quagmire costing thousands of lives among those deigning to intervene.
There is a time, place and even duty to launch an humanitarian intervention: it falls under the rubric of responsibility to protect. But these efforts require focused analysis and thought. Good but vague intentions are no substitute: methinks they are typically far worse than not caring at all, at least if acted upon.
This is interesting. So what do you think the possibilities are. If we want to imagine the future of the North Koreans, should we imagine a boot stamping on the human face forever? There is nothing noone can ever do about it, no matter how dedicated and how good their intentions?
I don’t think that. I actually was about to write North Korea itself, but then I thought that someone would complain about how I could think that would be enough, and that you would still have to reach the government. And then they would go on to talk about how little I know about North Korea. You are being rather presumptuous about what I think and what I know. I obviously do not know as much as experts on the region (such as you), but most of the things in this thread that I’m being corrected on, I did know.
You can imagine anything you like, I suppose. Can you imagine a way to overthrow the North Korean government in such a way that they are prevented from launching nukes?
First strike?
Or maybe a distraction would work. “Hey, look over there!”
That would certainly free them from slavery and oppression.
Bribe a top general to hold a coup and declare democracy?
Maybe pay *China *to solve it. We could lease Pacified North Korea from them for a hundred years.
Oh! I know! We’ll drop laptop computers on them! Millions of laptops, airdropped!
Turkeys would also be useful.
Can someone name a prominent South Korean that proposes invasion of North Korea? I think that’s the end of it.
"Attention, North Korea!
Join our side and get a free turkey.
That is all."
Seems plausible.
As god is my witness, I thought Turkeys could fly.
Missed the edit window, sorry to spam… but I’ve got the actual answer.
We arrange for one or more of their nuclear plants to ‘have an accident’.
Then we absorb all the NK population into the south, for safety. Feed them, clothe them, educate them etc.
‘Cleanup’ efforts are UN-lead, which means we can swarm in and build roads, bridges, water pumps and such.
Then let 'em back, if they promise to vote for the right people next time.
Any such “accident” would be seen as sabotage, and the nukes would fly.
The North Korean population would never believe your lies about some “nuclear event”. North Korean nuclear plants are invulnerable, and the radiation they release, unlike decadent Capitalist radiation, actually strengthens people exposed to it.
Seriously - the NKs already assume that all *real *humanitarian interventions are devious tricks. Why on earth would they fall for a fake one?
Needless to say, it would take overwhelming resources and decades to bring the North Koreans into the 18th century, even without resistance from their government. Nobody is going to bother, and from what I hear from my Korean students, there would be revolution in South Korea if the government there proposed spending a dime to try to reintegrate the two countries. Germany still has problems because of unification, and that was peaceful and between modern halves. NK is too far behind civilization to bother with.