Norwegian Women Raped in UAE; She is Sentenced to 16 Months

[even_sven]

@Anaamika

I’m pretty offended that somehow it’s the International Community who is “fixing” India. Fuck that noise. In agreement with AK84 and others, it is India that has been trying to drag the backwards portion of their civilization forwards for a loooong time. .

And you should be. India was perhaps a poorly chosen example for how international publicly can be one of many things that are helpful to those making change from within.

A Norwegian is not going to swoop down and fix UAE. But her speaking out can certainly help those who are trying to make change from within. In some cases, being an outsider can be an advantage to a cause. She, for example, can probably bring this to the press with less family pressure to let it wash over.

Anyway, we are all in this fight together. Can we all agree that retaliation against raped women is not okay, anywhere?

[Evil_Captor]

@bldysabba

I’ve told you before, and I’ll tell you again, not that it will make a difference, but I’ve grown up in India, and not a week goes by that I don’t wish we’d turned towards capitalism and not state-led socialism in our early post-independent history. The extra suffering that literally hundreds of millions of people(read that again and try and feel it - people tend to lose the emotional impact when it comes to really big numbers) would have avoided and have been avoiding now is massive. It almost makes arguments against capitalism immoral. The arguments come from a good place - the desire to give a damn about people who are not well off - but moving away from capitalism takes you to a bad place, where all those people you give a damn about, and others besides, end up worse off.

And I have told you and others before that capitalism is a better mechanism than generating wealth than socialism, no doubt about it, but it has an inevitable tendency to concentrate wealth among the rich over time and to ignore the social costs of some forms of generating wealth (like pollution and suffering among those who do not play the capitalism game as well as others). And unless there are powerful controls over that tendency, you get what we have here in the US now and in the past … a tiny, wealthy oligarchy that owns the bulk of wealth while the poor can’t get decent shelter, health services or other basic amenities, and a tendency to destroy the middle class and lump them with the poor, even if the middle class is a major wealth driver.

What seems to work best is democratic socialism like they have in Europe, but even there it’s a constant struggle to prevent the wealthy from taking everything and leaving the less wealthy destitute. Until the destructive aspects of capitalism are recognized and dealt with, it will remain a very dangerous economic system. Economists should take the lead in pointing this out, but they are mostly whores.

Capitalism alone is NOT the solution to India’s economic problems.

[Nava]

@bldysabba

Tell me about these countries. (Genuinely interested in knowing)

@AK84

England and Wales for one. Uptil the mid 70’s it was not unknown for rape victims to be called common prostitutes and for them to be arrested. Usually as a tactic to get them to shut up.

And Spain, Italy, Portugal… the case which made Spain realize that it is not “a husband’s right” to beat up his wife within one inch of her life, rape her and threaten her with raping their children (boys and girls both, they had 13) took place less than 30 years ago. The woman in question was one of the first guests of a talk show, shortly after we got private TV channels; she was mocked by the presenter, people called her telling her that she just had to do her wifely duty… and less than 48 hours later, she was dead at her husband’s hands.

The reference to “if she wore jeans it’s not rape” is from a recent case in Italy. We’ve had cases in Spain within the last 10 years of women being told that it wasn’t rape because a pencil skirt on a woman with mediterranean hips is provocative, because a miniskirt is provocative, and because the trousers hadn’t been ripped therefore she removed them voluntarily thus it wasn’t rape. Humanity may descend from monkeys, but some people (of any sexes and genders) ascend from the pig and not very far.

[Baker]

Nava, don’t insult pigs by implying they are related to humans like that!

[bldysabba]

@Nava

And Spain, Italy, Portugal…
<snip>

All terrible and true, but not what you’d posted.

Which was “I can come up with several Western countries where women would have been jailed if they’d been dumb enough to report rape, just within the last century”

If that was an exaggeration to imply that these countries treat women and rape victims in particular badly, fair enough. I read it more literally than that.

[Evil_Captor]

@Evil_Captor

What seems to work best is democratic socialism like they have in Europe, but even there it’s a constant struggle to prevent the wealthy from taking everything and leaving the less wealthy destitute. Until the destructive aspects of capitalism are recognized and dealt with, it will remain a very dangerous economic system. Economists should take the lead in pointing this out, but they are mostly whores.

I want to apologize for that statement. Whores are honest workers who give genuine service for money, for the most part. They are far better human beings than economists. It was wrong of me to compare the two.

[bldysabba]

@Evil_Captor

I want to apologize for that statement. Whores are honest workers who give genuine service for money, for the most part. They are far better human beings than economists. It was wrong of me to compare the two.

I think this is probably too much of a tangent. Not that it would be a productive discussion in the first place

ETA: The whole capitalism/socialism thing I mean. And I apologise for starting it.

[truthSeeker2]

Evil Captor

Capitalism is the correct way to go. We need privatization in everything.
Poverty was a simple problem to solve especially by leveraging all the advanced tech. at government’s avail these days. Its all Indian Government’s fault. Many of their meaningless subsidies(latest being food security bill, estimated $ 120 billions annually) there’s corruption, wastage and bad implementation.

I think following 3, if implemented, will bring social equity and eradicate all the poverty imo within a generation:

Handing out 1000 Rs per poor person per month(track this using biometric verification) for over 15 years old people. This will mean between 4000-5000 per family per month, enough to pay for food, water, education, digital tv connection, electricity bills, maintaining a cell phone etc if they live in a village or a small town. Currently , India has around 350 million poor many of whom work as unorganized labor, without job security, susceptible to exploitation and often get exploited. Even if 400 million people avail this cash benefit scheme that I propose, it will come from $80 billion to $96 billion(depending on exchange rates) per year which will ensure that people have at least the minimal financial security, escape the exploitation and live somewhat fulfilling life.

No. 2 is English language and computer/internet education in schools. Many schools start teaching A,B,C,D from 6th standard and dont teach Computers at all. I find dropouts from 9th, 10th class working as laborers, knowing zero English n Computers. These are immensely powerful things in our lives today. English should be taught from 1st class in Gov. schools and hands-on computers/internet classes from 6th class. I studied in a English medium Gov. school myself.

No. 3 I think is to improve literacy, tv affordability n usage and Internet penetration percentage as these things will decrease the fertility rate. Especially in the states of UP, bihar, mp, rajasthan. See thismap of media usage Vs fertility rate of various Indian states.

Most of the poverty is generational, thats even better coz you elevate one generation from poverty, you elevate future generations too and basically eradicate poverty.

[silenus]

You know absolutely nothing about economics, do you?

[OurLordPeace]

@bldysabba

I think this is probably too much of a tangent. Not that it would be a productive discussion in the first place

ETA: The whole capitalism/socialism thing I mean. And I apologise for starting it.

Since it is a tangent, I’ll just insert a link or two.

[Nava]

@bldysabba

All terrible and true, but not what you’d posted.

Which was “I can come up with several Western countries where women would have been jailed if they’d been dumb enough to report rape, just within the last century”

If that was an exaggeration to imply that these countries treat women and rape victims in particular badly, fair enough. I read it more literally than that.

Pre-Ana* women who reported non-spousal rape would have been jailed: “preventative prision” awaiting trial for prostitution unless they relented, at which point poof the prostitution charges would disappear, not having existed in the first place. But preventative prision could last for weeks if properly managed; if someone’s paperwork mysteriously kept moving to the bottom of the pile, months.

Which part isn’t “about having been jailed”, the last paragraph? That last paragraph was about the current situation, not about the fomer one. For the former one, I had previously not explained, giving the “and Spain, Italy, Portugal…” as a “+1” to AK84’s explanation which I quoted. You, on the other hand, did not indicate clearly which part did you not consider relevant.

• The one whose death changed the mindset.

[bldysabba]

@silenus

You know absolutely nothing about economics, do you?

I know plenty of economics, and while his terminology and phrasing are suspect, the unconditional cash transfer idea in particular , has been put forward and evaluated by quite a few serious development economists. The English education one…is not particularly well thought out, let’s say, especially since it’s already become a supply response to the what labour market is demanding. It would not necessarily be a poor response to poverty though, especially if it does boost education, which is among the best paths out of poverty. He’s committing some post hoc ergo propter hoc with the media usage thing, since it’s pretty clearly established that rising affluence and lower infant mortality rates are what bring about lower fertility. If anybody(including truthseeker) has a response, may I request that you start another thread? Or pm me, I’ll start one. I would be glad to continue the conversation there.

@Nava

Pre-Ana* women who reported non-spousal rape would have been jailed: “preventative prision” awaiting trial for prostitution unless they relented, at which point poof the prostitution charges would disappear, not having existed in the first place. But preventative prision could last for weeks if properly managed; if someone’s paperwork mysteriously kept moving to the bottom of the pile, months.

Which part isn’t “about having been jailed”, the last paragraph? That last paragraph was about the current situation, not about the fomer one. For the former one, I had previously not explained, giving the “and Spain, Italy, Portugal…” as a “+1” to AK84’s explanation which I quoted. You, on the other hand, did not indicate clearly which part did you not consider relevant.

• The one whose death changed the mindset.

If it’s not too much to demand, could you provide cites/further reading for the first paragraph I’ve quoted in this post? Also, was such a response codified in law, as it seems to be in certain Sharia based systems, or an abuse of the law only by the powerful? Or was it abused by everybody, in which case rape convictions would have been close to zero? Were they close to zero? Did they jump up substantially in years following the “Ana” case?

[Nava]

Rape convictions weren’t so much close to zero as approaching it on the negative side… as for cites not in Spanish, you can search yourself.

[truthSeeker2]

@bldysabba

I know plenty of economics, and while his terminology and phrasing are suspect, the unconditional cash transfer idea in particular , has been put forward and evaluated by quite a few serious development economists.

If the guy new the ground realities over here about:
–>exploitation of the poor or
–>the mess that GoI’s scheme’s are in
–>the price of things over here relative to the sum(Rs 1000pm) I am handing over monthly for ex. Rs 4600 - minimum one-way Delhi-Blore airfare Vs Rs 25 per Kg for Wheat flour, Rs 250 each per month for phone bill, Digital Tv connection etc.

he wouldn’t have given that comment. But thats fine.

Don’t actually need an economists to put forth such a thing, Its quite obvious from what we see and I guess you’d agree.

The English education one…is not particularly well thought out, let’s say, especially since it’s already become a supply response to the what labour market is demanding. It would not necessarily be a poor response to poverty though, especially if it does boost education, which is among the best paths out of poverty.

I am coming from a another angle. Our internet is in English unlike China, whose websites are in their language. We(people like you and I) pay all our bills, book all our tickets, search for jobs, businesses, study, gain info, getting aware, entertain etc on the internet. I was saying in that sense that English and Computers/Internet should be taught early before they drop out of school.

He’s committing some post hoc ergo propter hoc with the media usage thing, since it’s pretty clearly established that rising affluence and lower infant mortality rates are what bring about lower fertility.

The correlation that I gave isn’t only there in India but everywhere around the world. Literacy , Media exposure is source of passing the time, social awareness, women empowerment and hence bringing down fertility rates.

If anybody(including truthseeker) has a response, may I request that you start another thread? Or pm me, I’ll start one. I would be glad to continue the conversation there.

sure, but we will need to ask some Mod to put these posts into the new thread.

[bldysabba]

@Nava

Rape convictions weren’t so much close to zero as approaching it on the negative side… as for cites not in Spanish, you can search yourself.

I’ve tried, and am not coming up with anything at all on rape statistics before 1996. Also, if I’ve given the impression that I’m hostile to your claim, I’m not. I’m trying to understand it more completely and look at the factual basis for it to enhance my own knowledge, not to challenge yours. As such, if you have the time/inclination, I’d appreciate it if you could respond more fully to my previous post. If not, that’s cool too.

[Evil_Captor]

Well if Nava does not have cites for her claim, no one need believe them, that’s the rule on this board. I do appreciate her difficulty though, her cites are in Spanish and Portuguese because its about Spain and Portugal. It would be interesting to learn more, sounds like a really fucked-up system, I am wondering if it might not be some holdover from when Spain was under Moorish rule that got engrained in the culture.

[Evil_Captor]

To add a bit more, in the US, marital rape wasn’t recognized as a crime until 1978, when Nebraska enacted the first marital rape law. By 1993, all 50 states had enacted laws making marital rape illegal. (I wrote an article on the topic once, pointing out that for decades in the US, you could legally get involuntarily committed to a mental institution for consensually engaging in bondage play with your wife, but there were, legally, no consequences for actually raping your wife, so long as you didn’t tie her up.) So I can definitely see how holdover can occur, the law can be extremely weird.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Evil_Captor

I am wondering if it might not be some holdover from when Spain was under Moorish rule that got engrained in the culture.

Right, because a Christian culture can’t develop a fucked up attitude on its own. It must be outside influence! :rolleyes:

[Evil_Captor]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Right, because a Christian culture can’t develop a fucked up attitude on its own. It must be outside influence! :rolleyes:

Dude, immediately after I posted that I put up a post about marital rape being legal in the US in some states right into the 1990s. :rolleyes: