Nostradamus, the man who predicted NOTHING!

[Valteron]

In the eternal fight against ignorance, I am happy to note that Cecil and other straight dopers effectively shoot down the ridiculous claims of so-called “seers” like Jeanne Dixon and Nostradamus.

In fact, I have studied the predictions of Nostradamus in their original French. This is not easy because it is a little more different from modern French than Shakespearean English is to modern English. But I manage because French is my mother tongue and I am a professional translator.

Also, Nostradamus himself made every effort to use vague words that could have double meanings. Just one example: he often uses the word “germain” which in modern French means “born of the same mother and father” or else when used to describe cousins, it means first cousins whose fathers are brothers. At the time Nostradamus wrote in the 1500s, “germain” had this meaning of close relation. But it also had the meaning of “true” or " real". Which also gave it the meaning of “honest”. In addition, since it comes from the Latin for German, it could be interpreted to mean Germans or Germany. Or it could simply be the name of a person, since Germain is a common French name even today.
The simple fact is that Nostradamus never actually predicted ANYTHING PERIOD!

How do I dare make such a claim? Simple.

In order for a prediction to be a prediction, it has to be comprehensible to the person who hears it before it happens.

For example, what if on September 10, 2001 I made this prediction: “Wallla walla bing bang flappa flappa wracka wracka”. Everybody scratches their heads and wondsers what I am talking about. The next day, September 11, I tell you that I predicted the 9-11 terrorist attack. Walla walla refers to the two walls of the two towers that were struck by the jets. Bing bang refers to the explosions. Flappa flappa refers to flapping as in wings, as in airliners that have wings. And wracka wracka refers to the wreckage of both buildings. Anfd you will notice that I said everything twice, because there were two towers.

Now then, would you believe I was an amazing prophet, or would you say I was full of BS?

If you look at the prophecies of Nostradamus, you will see that NOT ONE of them can be clearly understood as meaning anything specific BEFORE the events they are supposed to predict. They are nothing but vague jibberish that can mean any number of things. And they ar NOT dated. He talks about ships in the Adriatic, for example. Which means that ANY shipping or naval event in the Adriatic any time between now and the end of the world will prove that Nostradamus was a prophet!

If you have any questions about Nostradamus or would like to discuss him, be my guest.

[Miller]

I just want to say welcome to the SDMB. You’ve posted a hell of an OP there, although I don’t know if “Nostradamus was full of shit,” leaves much room for debate. Seems like a forgone conclusion to me.

[clairobscur]

@Valteron

In fact, I have studied the predictions of Nostradamus in their original French. This is not easy because it is a little more different from modern French than Shakespearean English is to modern English.

And you forgot to add that many Nostradamus’ “quatrains” just don’t make any sense gramatically. Like the end of the famous one supposedly predicting the death of Henry II : “Deux classes une, puis mourir, mort cruelle” (“two classes one then dying cruel death”) which greatly facilitates a convenient interpretation. I noticed that many english translations hide this fact by turning a perfectly meaningless string of french words into an actual english sentence.

Apart from that, I’m affraid you’re preaching to the choir, here…

[Cunctator]

@clairobscur

And you forgot to add that many Nostradamus’ “quatrains” just don’t make any sense gramatically.

We looked at some of his quatrains one day at the Alliance Française. The teacher pointed out how bad the French was and wondered how some of the English translations were produced.

@Valteron

If you have any questions about Nostradamus or would like to discuss him, be my guest.

The one thing I remember from one of those “spooky” television documentaries was that Nostradamus supposedly predicted the exact date on which grave robbers would later come to open his tomb…or something like that. He was said to have had a plaque with the date affixed to his coffin and this scared the living daylights out of the grave robbers. I assume there’s no actual evidence of this claim?

[TJdude825]

Perhaps slightly more accurately, he predicted a whole bunch of things. Thus when one of them allegedly comes true, it’s not very impressive. That’s kind of like drawing a tiny mark on a wall, then shooting the wall blindfolded thousands of times. Then you hit the little mark, and say that you have absolutely amazing aim.

So predicting everything is a lot like predicting nothing.

[clairobscur]

@Cunctator

The one thing I remember from one of those “spooky” television documentaries was that Nostradamus supposedly predicted the exact date on which grave robbers would later come to open his tomb…or something like that. He was said to have had a plaque with the date affixed to his coffin and this scared the living daylights out of the grave robbers. I assume there’s no actual evidence of this claim?

I quickly looked around and only found that his grave was actually defaced during the french revolution.

Then I got lost in a long explanation of why an astute reader will understand that his will was actually intended as a the final element of his prophecies (that is proven, as far as I can tell, by an adverb indicating that Nostradamus was present when the will was written, which is, I must admit, extremely surprising), and that the number of items willed, of candles to use during the mass, of heirs, etc… show the significance of the numbers 3, 13 and 22 that obviously should be used as a secret code to reorganize his prophecies in a different order or somesuch. Then, I gave up.

[clairobscur]

@TJdude825

Perhaps slightly more accurately, he predicted a whole bunch of things.

I wouldn’t even say that. He wrote a lot of mostly meaningless and mysterious-looking crap letting to the reader the task of creatively turning them into predictions. “The pope will die in 2005” is a prediction. “Sitting at night secret study/office, Only/Alone rested/resting on the brass saddle/seat, Narrow burn/flame leaving solitude, Makes prosperous who/that isn’t to be believed pointless/vain” isn’t.
(I used study/office, saddle/seat, etc… for words with a double meaning I could spot)

[clairobscur]

By the way, to illustrate my former point, here’s a english translation of the previous text :

"SITTING at night (in) secret study,
Alone placed on the brass tripod:
(A) slight flame comes out of (the) emptiness,
Makes successful that which should not be beleived (in) vain.

Though it still doesn’t make sense, it’s nevertheless significantly better than the original.
Based on my more accurate previous translation, I predict that someone is going to stay late at work tommorrow and will light a cigarette. His work will be productive.

Whoever this applies to can send me some money for further informations about how Nostradamus predictions apply to him and his future. On the basis of the following verse, I suspect he will either soon go for a walk in the woods with a virgin, or baptize someone in a swimming pool, I’m not very sure.

[Cunctator]

@clairobscur

Then, I gave up.

Très sage.

[CalMeacham]

when I was a kid, I picked u a book (cheap) by Stewart Robb touting the praises of Nostradamus, and particularly his predictions regarding Napoleon. I was mightily puzzled, because Nostradamus didn’t fit well into my world view, which was pretty rationalist even then. Nostradamus was too far out even allowing the existence of some previously underappreciated human talent. It was years before I learned how Robb’s enthusiastic writing slanted and cherry-picked the facts. (I think Robb is a for-real believer, but that doesn’t mean he won’t put the best face on his case).

I recommen in particular James Randi’s book The Mask of Nostradamus for a counter-view. Randi’s book fascinates me because he takes the first example in Robb’s book – a supposed prediction of the Montgolfier balloon – and looks at it critically, with fresh eyes, and produces a completely different interpretation that I find very convincing – and doesn’t involve any prediction of future technology at all.

[Crotalus]

@Valteron

For example, what if on September 10, 2001 I made this prediction: “Wallla walla bing bang flappa flappa wracka wracka”. Everybody scratches their heads and wondsers what I am talking about. The next day, September 11, I tell you that I predicted the 9-11 terrorist attack. Walla walla refers to the two walls of the two towers that were struck by the jets. Bing bang refers to the explosions. Flappa flappa refers to flapping as in wings, as in airliners that have wings. And wracka wracka refers to the wreckage of both buildings. Anfd you will notice that I said everything twice, because there were two towers.

Now then, would you believe I was an amazing prophet, or would you say I was full of BS?

I would say you wrote a great OP, and welcome to SDMB. I really enjoyed your hypothetical prediction.

[APB]

@Cunctator

The one thing I remember from one of those “spooky” television documentaries was that Nostradamus supposedly predicted the exact date on which grave robbers would later come to open his tomb…or something like that. He was said to have had a plaque with the date affixed to his coffin and this scared the living daylights out of the grave robbers. I assume there’s no actual evidence of this claim?

Did Nostradamus predict the day his tomb would be discovered?

[BobLibDem]

I’m normally a skeptic, but for the sake of argument consider C10Q72

The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror:
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.

One could consider the seventh month to mean September. And a great king of terror coming from the sky isn’t much of a stretch to the hijacked airliners, is it? It sort of falls apart when you get to the “King of the Mongols”, but the first part is pretty close, in my book. Not perfect, but not something I’d readily dismiss.

Of course there is Henry II (C1Q35):

[QUOTE]
The young lion will overcome the older one,
On the field of combat in a single battle;
He will pierce his eyes through a golden cage,
Two wounds made one, then he dies a cruel death.[\QUOTE]

This is quite hard to dismiss. True, much of what he wrote is quite vague. But for at least the Henry II example, there is much more clarity. I’m not saying I believe in the supernatural, I just can’t rule it out in his case.

[Driver8]

@Cunctator

The one thing I remember from one of those “spooky” television documentaries was that Nostradamus supposedly predicted the exact date on which grave robbers would later come to open his tomb…or something like that. He was said to have had a plaque with the date affixed to his coffin and this scared the living daylights out of the grave robbers. I assume there’s no actual evidence of this claim?

I was about to say “You’d think the dramatic impact of such a plaque would be drastically reduced by simply robbing the grave on a different day!”, but then I saw that you meant the plaque was inside the tomb. Still, it would be pretty funny if it were true … it would be the one specific prediction he made, and very likely to be proven false (although I wouldn’t want to risk it, imagine the spate of irritating books and “documentaries” that this event would produce!)

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

Welcome to the SDMB, Valteron.

Good strong start, with a no-nonsense take.

Your position on Nostradamus’ “predictions” coincides with my own. Fortune-telling is rubbish.

To be fair, Nostradamus made 2 non-mystical contributions that partially redeem him in my eyes.

1. During the Black Plague, he was one of the few physicians who didn’t flee the cities. He stayed, & helped the sick. Courage counts for something. His medical advice for Plague was pointedly non-magical: good diet, bed rest, & cold compresses to reduce fever.

2)He wrote a charming book of jelly & preserves recipes.

He’d have my respect, if he hadn’t gone commercial with those silly books on “prophesy”

[Johnny_L.A]

@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

1. During the Black Plague, he was one of the few physicians who didn’t flee the cities. He stayed, & helped the sick.

I recall reading that Marie Laveau, the famous ‘voodoo priestess’, helped the sick during a typhus outbreak in New Orleans.

Not that it’s germane to the OP. Just what your comment reminded me of.

[Crotalus]

Given the somewhat slanted or interpretive translations that are often applied to the writing of Nostradamus, and the apparent qulaifications of Valteron, I would be very interested to read Valteron’s translation of the two quatrains cited by BobLibDem.

[clairobscur]

[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
Of course there is Henry II (C1Q35):

The young lion will overcome the older one,
On the field of combat in a single battle;
He will pierce his eyes through a golden cage,
Two wounds made one, then he dies a cruel death.[\QUOTE]

This is quite hard to dismiss.

As you said, it’s indeed quite vague. It doesn’t seem hard to dismiss, at least according to debunking sites. Here are the main arguments used on such a site (besides the vagueness) :

• Why is the king represented by a lion? According to Nostradamus supporters, both fighters would have used a lion as symbol on this day. There’s no evidence that they did. The king’s coat of arms being of course the “fleur de lys”.

-The king didn’t die on a battlefield, nor in a duel (as the french text would imply) but during a tournament.

-There’s no evidence that the king’s eye was pierced. The lance entered above the eye.

-Nostradamus supporters state that the king was wearing a helmet gilded with gold. It might be conceivable, but there’s no evidence of that. Besides, a helmet isn’t a “cage”.

-What does the word “classes” (translated in english by “wound” for some reason, I didn’t find any evidence that “classe” ever meant “wound”) has to do with anything? Even if it meant “wound” what is the second wound? Besides, “made” doesn’t appear in the french text, either. It’s “two classes one”

-According to Nostradamus supporters, someone at the court immediatly noticed that the king’s death had been predicted by this verse. Actually, the first known reference to this prediction in relation with the death of the king appeared in 1656, one century later.

-On the other hand, in a letter written to the king two years before his (the king’s) death, Nostradamus predicted him universal rule and a bright future. You can’t get it right every time, I suppose.

As for the first “quatrain” you mention, you might notice that 9/11 did not occur in 1999. That’s too bad since for once the prediction actually included a date, and this could have been a good test of the centuries’ validity.

[bup]

@Valteron

on September 10, 2001 I made this prediction: “Wallla walla bing bang flappa flappa wracka wracka”.

Whoa. Did you really say that the day before the terrorist hijackings?

That’s just freaky.

[BobLibDem]

[QUOTE=clairobscur]

@BobLibDem

As for the first “quatrain” you mention, you might notice that 9/11 did not occur in 1999. That’s too bad since for once the prediction actually included a date, and this could have been a good test of the centuries’ validity.

DOH! I didn’t even notice the year.