That sounds logical, and as it should be - organisms reproduce to replace themselves. Where we run into problems is when parents think their offspring are the star in anyone else’s lives. 
And suddenly, I was able to see myself as a supporting player in my mother’s movie. I’d never really been able to do that before.
You could also die surrounded by adoring nieces and nephews (in some of our cultures they are your immediate family also) who remember you as the cool childfree relative that played with them when they were little and now has a large savings account as a result of not having kids that will have to be willed to somebody. Just a thought.
Seconded.
Leaffan’s post is just ridiculous and narrow.
throws Legos at Leaffan’s feet like caltrops
Speaking of which, I have stepped on plenty of Legos as an adult, though nowhere near as many as a parent. And I’ve changed diapers, but thankfully, a minimum of times.
And I HAVE flown on a plane being one of the primary caretakers of an infant. On a fucking 18 hour flight (with a 2 hour stopover). Don’t even ask. I never wanted so much to throttle a kid as I did (hey, I was only fifteen!!) Now when I look back I just feel sorry for the poor kid. He just wanted his mommy and couldn’t say it, and his mommy IMO made a very poor decision.
I have the same impression from the OP that you did. I actually think he did a great job of crafting a very non-confrontational question and appreciate his honesty and curiosity. He didn’t use any of the buzzwords that some of the aggressively childfree do, and doesn’t seem to disrespect the choices of parents. Being gay may have a lot to do with this, it’s just a different world to him, not one he could be part of but chooses not to, like a heterosexual childfree person. This was more of a GQ than an IMHO, but he’s looking for perspective.
In fact, I could very well see myself asking the reciprocal question. For me, coming from one of the late generations of large families(born in '76, when the average family size was 2 kids) and having a large family myself today, there are probably things that don’t occur to me either. For example, I’ve never had my own bedroom. My office at work and my truck may be the closest to private space that I have. My wife and I married young and started our family young. We knew we wanted to have kids while we were young because we were both children of older parents and wanted to have a more active lifestyle as young parents.
We’re going to the theatre alone tonight, but that’s about five or six hours that we’ll be away from the kids. We have a trip upcoming to New York where we’re spending five days and four nights away from the kids and we’re completely consumed with planning for them. It’s by far the longest time we’ve both been away from them and we’re making sure we have people lined up to take care of them, medical power of attorneys signed, transportation, food, etc. We’re fortunate that we have a social circle including an above-average number of homemakers and our kids are pretty well known and liked. We’ve actually got people lining up to have the kids come stay with them, but that introduces issues as well.
So as much work as that sounds like, it’s pretty normal to me. It’s the same kinds of considerations we had whenever we were taking trips when I was a kid. Some would be full-family trips, sometimes we’d go places as smaller units. So that’s my normal. I realize it’s very different for other people, but I don’t have a realistic sense of how, in everyday situations, their lives flow.
I’m not sure how we got into value judgments territory, but the OP seemed genuinely curious about just wanting info, not about casting judgment. Sometimes it’s fun to lift the lids on other people’s houses(with their permission of course) and experience a day in their life. I think that’s all the OP wanted.
Enjoy,
Steven
Not necessarily true and impossible to predict with any degree of accuracy. I may die in middle age. I might be in a fatal car wreck on my way home from work this afternoon. I might die old. I might not.
There’s no guarantee of that either. Plenty of married people with children waste away, lonely, in nursing homes. Marriage and parenthood is no guarantee against loneliness. Furthermore, I’m 41, have never been married and am not lonely. Why would I be lonely in another 40 years? I still have friends, and family…
Some people have no immediate family to call their own during their lifetimes.
And I have immediate family. I have a niece and a nephew. I have a sister. That’s pretty immediate. There’s no guarantee that we won’t all die first and leave my sister (married twice with two children) to die alone with no immediate family.
Finally, I live 1200 miles away from my nearest relative. I haven’t had immediate family within a thousand miles of me for 20 years. What difference will it make when I’m old? Family is overrated and is not necessary for a happy, healthy life, nor for a peaceful death.
Oh, and money…we structure our family plan assuming that our kids will have their own families to take care of, so probably not very different than you. I certainly don’t think they’ll be taking care of me in my old age. But in the meantime, we have to take care of them. Save for college, keep them clothed, buy school supplies. Airfare for four instead of for two. Mine are pretty indulged, so there is summer camp and winter ski passes. Expensive little things, kids are. And every indication is that it doesn’t really end when they turn 18 or 21…there is still the potential for “Dad, can I borrow a few hundred bucks” well into adulthood. My baby sister is closing in on forty and still uses the Bank of Dad.
My sister with kids is the one of the two of us who still calls Mommy for money sometimes. Not having children, I’ve been better able to plan for unforeseen expenses and have a safety net of some savings, whereas, if my sister’s car broke down, she had a choice of feeding the kids or fixing the car. I’ve never had my back up against the wall like that as a single person.
That’s a variant of the “I’m more important than anyone else” problem. Just at one remove. “My kid is more important than anyone else”. I think everyone secretly has those thoughts, though some try empathizing with others who are not blood relations and even not part of their ‘monkeysphere’ - it isn’t always easy.
I’ll say this though - thinking of someone else (be it a kid or whoever) as nudging one’s own self-regard off centre stage can help some in developing empathy for others, generally. Being a parent, I personally find it easier to (say) empathize with others than I did when I was not, particularly of course other parents, including my own. I certainly would not claim that parent-hood is the only way to do this, but it is a reasonably common way.
For example, dealing with my kid when he’s unreasonable, I realize my parents had to deal with me likewise. Suddenly, all those petty resentments and grudges I had held for their treatment of me as a kid and as a (shudder) teen - I can see now how restrained they really were, how much they tried their best. I can now better appreciate what they have done for my brothers and myself. It adds that perspective, particularly on the one event that everyone, man or woman, gay or straight, has in common - being a child.
Just to clarify, I wasn’t gung ho about kids, though if had married someone who wanted them I would likely have had them (which is its own scary thought). But Steve’s ill-health made it very clear that it wouldn’t be the right choice for me and us.
I know (or inferred from previous posts) - people who are gung ho on kids have them anyway one way or another.
There really isn’t a way to guarantee that you won’t be old and alone. Spouses can die, or divorce you. Friends can drift away. Children can die or become estranged from you.
Children come with factory pre-set personalities. Parents don’t get to choose what kind of personality their child will have. There’s certainly no guarantee that your adult child’s personality will be compatible with yours. There’s no guarantee that your adult child will be a person you’d want to live with, or who would want to live with you. There’s not even a guarantee that your adult child will call, text, email, or visit as often as you’d like. Adult children sometimes make very different life choices than their parents did, so there’s no guarantee that you’ll have much in common or much to talk about with your adult child.
Don’t think it’s only abusive assholes whose adult children aren’t close to them, either. Sometimes it happens just because your personalities, lifestyles, or interests aren’t compatible, and there just isn’t much to talk about.
As someone who does not have children by choice, it has often struck me how odd it is that I have made such an unpopular decision, and that alone has made me question it, but only briefly. I honestly don’t understand why the huge majority of the world decides to have children. The downside just seems huge to me, and the upside so uncertain. As this thread has shown, having children affects every area of your life. I like my life, and don’t want it affected, thankyouverymuch. Even when my husband died, I wasn’t sorry I didn’t have children to keep me company.
I thought of another area–church attendance. I know several people who didn’t attend church until they had kids because they want to raise their children in a church.
Post #4.
I wanted kids, we spent a few years going through fertility treatments then adopted. (Then had a surprise, too). And sometimes the all encompassing nature of kids makes me want my old life back. Not so much now that they are older, but in that “I can’t go to the bathroom without company” stage. It was maddening. And sometimes it still can be - inconvenient to have kids.
(Wouldn’t it be great to have unrestrained loud sex? Or to watch inappropriate movies at 2 in the afternoon. Or jump on an airplane because there was a great short notice deal to Vegas. Plan my meals without thinking “the kids won’t eat that.” Or just not have to WORRY about someone else.)
I can’t imagine anyone who didn’t want or wasn’t sure about kids deciding to have them. I’m sure it “often works out.” But what a sad situation for everyone when it doesn’t!
On the contrary, I think it is the “popular choice” given society in general seems to believe that having kids is what one is “supposed” to do.
and that’s just it. There’s no “do-over” once you have a kid.
That’s pretty much it. As I said in the OP, some things have struck me lately about how different my life and major decisions have been different then if I had kids. I realized that since it was never even a consideration for me, that the way I approach the world is rather different then the way most people do and I was interested in what some of the differences that I may not have even thought of would be.
I think the discussion has been interesting and I’ve enjoyed all the responses, from the serious to the lighthearted.
For future reference, it’s generally free to check a car seat. Still a giant pain in the ass (from experience), but free.
I used to go to bed and rise when I wanted to, now I am permantly sleep deprived.
The main thing besides sleep is that for perspective changes, you start to have a lot more empathy for more people. When you see a mum struggling with a toddler you don’t judge you just think “man am I glad my kids are older now”. In the past I might have thought a little less kindly about her.
My dad and I used to have a mates relationship once I was grown up, now I go back to him for advice.