Not Sure If This is a GD, But.....

Great Debates
1

What are everyone’s thoughts on the Casey Martin vs the PGA dispute?

For anyone that doesn’t know, Casey Martin is a professional golfer with a circulatory problem in his leg. This makes it hard (maybe impossible) for him to walk 18 holes of golf. “So why not ride a cart?” you might ask. Well, normally, that wouldn’t be a problem, but on the PGA tour, carts are illegal. Every golfer walks. Let me repeat that, because it bears repeating. EVERY GOLFER ON THE PGA TOUR HAS TO WALK, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RULES.

Now.

This fellow Martin wants to play in the PGA, and he thinks he ought to be able to use a cart because of his circulatory problem. Thing is, the PGA said No Way, Jose. Well, Martin sued, using the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) against the PGA. I just read in the paper today that the court ruled for Martin.

Personally, I don’t think he should be allowed to ride. If a guy missing his left arm tried to become a professional boxer, could he ask the IBF, the IBC or the WBA (I think I got those right…) to outlaw right-handed punches from the other fighter during his matches? It’s the same premise…a handicapped (sorry, differently-abled) person is changing the rules of the game because he can’t cope. If you have one arm, you simply don’t box. If you can’t walk 18 holes, you don’t play in the PGA. Seems simple to me.

Plus, riding in a cart gives Martin an unfair advantage over the walking golfers. Anyhoo, this should spark some interesting debate. Feel free to tear me up if any of you are “differently-abled” posters.

2

I think you are right. It does give him an advantage, and if he can’t play the game the way it is played, he shouldn’t be competing.

3

Yes, this story has irked me for some time. I’m sorry to have to be the one to say it, but… people who have a handicap need to learn to deal with it. If you can’t drink milk, then you don’t drink milk. If you can’t use your arm, then you can’t use your arm. And if you can’t play in a golf tournament, then you don’t play in a golf tournament.

The rules in the PGA are set to apply to EVERYBODY, no matter what. Why is this unfair? Because everybody’s not the same? Tough. I’m a chubby guy… some of the most extreme Political Correctness types would call that chubbiness a “handicap”. Because of the fact that I’m out of shape, I can’t do some of the physically demanding things that other people do. So do I go up to a bunch of people playing basketball, ask to play, and then insist that they all go easy on me 'cuz I carry a bit of extra fat? Hell no.

I’m sorry that Casey Martin has a hard time walking. It really sucks, it truly does. But he has to accept that burden, rather than whine about it. People are different. Not necessarily better, or worse, but different. Them’s the facts. So, what he’s done is basically raise himself above all the other golfers, gotten Special Treatment[sub]TM[/sub], because he can’t accept the difficulties that come with being Casey Martin.

4

He can play golf just fine. He just can’t walk. Playing golf involves swinging a club and hitting a ball, then doing it again and again until in goes in the cup. How you get to your ball doesn’t have anything to do with your ability to play golf. It’s not like the boxing example. Being able to throw a punch is an important part of boxing, so you just can’t participate if you can’t punch. If Martin couldn’t swing his clubs, he obviously couldn’t play golf, but he can swing them. How he gets to the ball is about as important to his ability to swing as how a relief pitcher gets to the mound is to his ability to throw strikes.

So they make an exception. They already make exceptions for other rules, like the one about having to qualify for tournaments. The tournaments have a certain number of slots for exemptions from qualifying. Some go to young players, some go to past winners of the tournament, and some get selected by the owner of the country club where the tournament is being played. They can pick whoever they want. That’s right, if you’re buddies with a country club owner, you too can play in a PGA tournament! No talent required! Since they don’t seem to mind making exceptions to that rule, they can make them to this one too.
Besides, it’s not a rule of the game of golf, it’s a rule of the league. Professional sports leagues change rules all the time. Remember the reserve clause in baseball? That was a time-honored league rule too, but it’s gone now. It also had nothing to do with how the game is played.

How? Golf’s probably one of the least taxing sports there is out there. It doesn’t take too much energy to swing a club seventy or eighty times over the course of several hours. Are they going to be too tired from walking? There’s a simple solution: Let anyone who requests to use a cart use a cart. Simple. Fair. What’s the problem? Tradition? Carrying your own clubs used to be a tradition too, and they don’t do that anymore.

5

I understand what y’all are saying, and I guess it makes sense to me, but here’s what I don’t get. Golf isn’t about walking- it’s about beating the hell outta some ball with a metal doohickey. How you get from one hole to the next doesn’t really enter into that equation. I will admit that it affects the game if you walk or don’t walk from the tee to your shots, but (IIRC) that’s not what Casey’s suing over- it’s the walk from hole to the next tee that he wants to use a cart for. For all I care, you can crawl on your belly from tee to tee as long as you can make your next shot. It’s not like walking is central to the game, or is even designed to be physically challenging. It’s just your method for getting from the tee to the clubhouse in time to hoist a couple with your buddies.
Now, here’s the part of these responses that have ticked me off so far- apparently the PGA has a rule against carts. First, just because the PGA has a rule against it doesn’t make it a good idea. But, even if it is a rule that’s been discussed and considered, it’s not like it really matters if one poor schlump with a disability carts his rear around. The only thing that ticks me off about the whole thing is that someone had to file a suit over it. The PGA could have just realized this just isn’t such a big deal. Hell, it’s only golf- it’s not like it’s even a sport. Sheesh.

M.

6

How is walking between holes a part of golf? The PGA argues that walking causes fatigue, which is part of the game. In the majority opinion, the Supreme Court noted that Casey Martin, due to his rare circulatory condition, suffers more fatigue on the cart than most golfers do walking. So that argument is nullified.

Anyway, it is win-win. The ruling is narrow enough that the PGA feels it may only apply to Casey Martin in the whole history of golf. Casey Martin gets to play.

With professional sports, I generally agree with those posted above. If you have a handicap, then tough shit. It is just the way the world works – we are glorifying athletic ability and by definition the handicapped have less physical ability than the fully functional. It is sad, but nobody is arguing for making the mentally handicapped college professors or for equal representation for the morbidly obese in Miss America or for the claustrophobic as chimney sweeps.

But this is not part of the core of the game. The PGA’s justification is nullified. It is like making a xerostomic Sjogren’s sufferer ineligible for professional baseball because he can’t spit.

7

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How? Golf’s probably one of the least taxing sports there is out there. It doesn’t take too much energy to swing a club seventy or eighty times over the course of several hours. Are they going to be too tired from walking? There’s a simple solution: Let anyone who requests to use a cart use a cart. Simple. Fair. What’s the problem? Tradition? Carrying your own clubs used to be a tradition too, and they don’t do that anymore.
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Walk 4-5 miles, and hit a ball 3-5 times per hole. Then you’ll see how taxing walking 18 is. The fatigue you get from walking 18 adds to the challenge of the game. Hence, Martin does not have that additional challenge to contend with.

I hope Martin plays, and he sucks horribly. Then it won’t really matter, and we can all laugh. Remember when Sharon What’s-her-name got into the Citadel? What a wonderful laugh we all had when she flunked out after the first week. (My memory is hazy on this, but I’m not far off.)

8

Almost as taxing as a sport where you actually have to run? I’ve played those.

If we were to ask a golfer from 100 years ago, he’d say that carrying your clubs was part of the game and it added to the challenge. But I bet if I tune in to the next golf tournament, I won’t see Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson carrying their own clubs, will I? Things change. The golfers of old would probably laugh at them all for not being manly enough to carry their own equipment.

See my suggestion above. I’ll even C&P it here so you can see it again. Let anyone who requests to use a cart use a cart. That would even things out. Do you have any problems with the suggestion?

Charming.

9

This is just silly. The other golfers do not have the additional challenge of a dengenerative disease that makes walking that distance damn near impossible. If Martin were able, I’m sure he’d be pleased as punch to walk that distance.

It’s not much of an issue anyway. In events where the use of cart is allowed, Martin often fails to make the cut. I mean, is the PGA afraid Martin is gonna run away with a match because the other golfers are tuckered out?

10

Basketball is about putting the ball through the basket, right? I can shoot pretty well, I just have problems with running and dribbling at the same time, can’t I get an exemption for that silly travelling rule?

11

Basketball’s about more than just that. It’s also about passing and dribbling and playing defense, among other things. The point of baseball is to have more players cross home than the other team, but that’s not all you have to do. There’s hitting, fielding, baserunning, throwing, and, for some, pitching. To play baseball, you must do all those things. (Except in certain situations. The DH, for example, only needs to hit and run.) Golf involves doing one thing only - repeatedly hitting a ball towards a cup until it goes in. That’s it. That’s all you have to do to play golf. Casey Martin can do that, he just needs help getting to the field of play.

12

Prot…

You don’t know much about golf, do you?

Sure it does. If you get to your ball perfectly rested and relaxed, after less strain walking under the sun, in the heat, your muscles will function better and your aim will be more accurate. Conversely, try walking, hell, just ONE mile, and then immediately take a swing at a ball and just see how steady your nerves are.

Except in baseball, there’s not a rule that says that a pitcher is REQUIRED to walk to the mound.

Why? Rules is rules is rules is rules is rules. The sport is completely meaningless with the rules.

You have absolutely NO qualms about a private organization being forced on how it’s own rules are dictated?

Utterly irrelevant and you know it. Again, I say that you don’t know much about golf.

Or, better yet, have NOBODY use a cart. Simpler. Fairer. What’s the problem?

Again, utterly irrelevant.

Also irrelevant. This isn’t 100 years ago. This is NOW. Life is not an episode of Star Trek. Reality doesn’t shift back and forth between the centuries.

Of their own accord, yes. NOT by a court ruling forcing a private organization to change their rules.

Just like golf’s about more than just whacking a ball into a hole. If you’re going to be overly simple with your descriptions of the sports, do try to be consistent, will you?

Much like how golf is about walking, thinking, and concentrating. It’s harder to concentrate with the occasional drop of sweat running down your nose.

Raz…

He has, so that point is utterly moot. I think he’s been spending too much time whining about being equal (oh horrors! Equality!) to the other players, and not enough time practicing his swing…

The thing that pisses me off is a court ordering the PGA to alter its rules - the rules that Martin was WELL aware of when he made his bid for the tour. If he thought he couldn’t win under those rules, he should have dropped out right then and there, rather than try to change the rules to give himself a fighting chance. It’s called a “sport” for a reason. Changing the rules is VERY poor sportsmanship. Hell, you can’t even change the rules in Calvinball (you can just add to 'em… :D).

13

Maybe. And then you would get you butt kicked and no one would hire you. (I’m pretty sure Shaq would be able to block all your shots)

14

Aren’t there rule changes in football and basketball put-near every year?

15

I’m with Mark Twain on this one: Golf is a good walk spoiled*

*Or at least it was attributed to MT

16

SPOOFE - Did you read this bit?

And speaking as someone who does play golf occasionaly, you’re still playing the same game if you’re travelling round in a cart. Yes the walking is part of it, but certainly not the most important part. What matters is judgement and skill. If you’re perfectly healthy you might get an advantage from a cart, but if you’re badly off enough to need one it won’t help you that much.

-And Mangetout, I heard that quote attributed to Spike Milligan :stuck_out_tongue:

17

If this were really true, they’d get rid of the damned caddies and make those clowns carry their own clubs. I mean, how friggin’ fatiguing can it be to simply walk two or three miles? Especially for guys that do it every damned day. It should be the proverbial “walk in the park.”

Feh. Let him in.

18

When I’m out golfing, my Away message on AOL reads:

“Another great day, ruined by golf- Me, Today.”
Oh yeah, and SPOOFE, I concur with all your points.

19

But golfers don’t have to play immediately. They can take their time over every shot (and they certainly do!). Are you confusing this with the Olympic sport (Biathlon) which combines skiing and shooting within a timed race? Now those guys need steady nerves.

I think the key word is important. The skill in golf is taking the shot, not travelling between shots.

So Murder Inc. should be allowed to go about its business? :confused:

Of course golf demands accuracy, concentration and finesse. Since there’s big money and lots of media attention, you need good nerves as well (don’t get those yips!). But it doesn’t need much physical exertion, which is what the original poster meant. The overweight or elderly can play golf very well.

I think golfers should carry their own bag, and also not get continual advice from their caddies. If you think golf should be physically demanding, don’t you agree?
The rules change constantly. Why do we freeze the game now?

You don’t think the threat of court action helped black golfers get into the sport?

That sweat is not from physical exertion. It’s just the heat! Maybe golfers should stay in the shade…

The court joined in to protect the rights of the individual - don’t you think that’s important?

But sports change their rules regularly! What is your implication?

20

The issue isn’t about Golf.

My objection to the court ruling has nothing to do with whether or not Martin has more or less fatigue on or off the cart or whether walking is or is not integral to the game. I have serious objection the Government telling a private organization that their rules must be changed to accommodate a certain individual. As far as I know, the PGA takes no tax payer subsides so has the right to set its own rules without Government interference. When the Government has the power to change the rules of private organizations, then the Government has too much power.