And yet the PGA’s version of a minor league allowed Martin to play golf tournaments while riding a cart.
Thus completely discrediting the idea that the hike to the ball is an important part of the game.
Further discussion here: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=55981
So I should be able to start a whites only sports league? Or a blacks only one for that matter? Great now that I know those nasty courts can’t come in and make me respect the rights of groups I don’t like I guess I can discriminate against whoever I want. Why stop at handicaps. Think how much more competitive golf would be if they made a rule to not allow players of color. That would teach Tiger Woods not to mess with all those PGA records. I mean it’s obvious isn’t it that he has an unfair advantage and we should pass rules to ban him. And we are a private organization so those evil courts couldn’t possibly force us to change our rules.
According to the law of the land you are not allowed to discriminate against anyone because of the group they belong to. Even if that group is the handicapped. The problem that many in this thread seem to have is that they see a handicap as a reasonable prejudice. “It’s OK to discriminate against THEM because they really ARE different.” Really doesn’t impress me as an argument. If they weren’t different then you wouldn’t be discriminating.
I play golf. The difference between walking and riding is only one thing. You play faster when you ride. Since that is absolutely irrelevant to professional tournaments I really don’t see the point.
You are more fatigued from walking? Yea right. I really can’t see the walk making a difference when you get to this level. Can you see any pro athlete using, “I walked a mile before the game and that’s why we lost. I was too fatigued” as an excuse? He’d be laughed out of the sport.
I’m pretty sympathetic to the PGA’s argument, and I’m especially sympathetic to the general argument that a private organization can set it’s competive rules as it pleases (I’m short and slow – can they change the NFL’s policy about hitting people, please?).
But I wonder if the PGA has any actual evidence about the whole walking = fatigue thing. I mean, evidence is what we live on here, no?
Anecdotally, I can say that if I’m not feeling good going into a game, my shotmaking suffers on the back of the course. But these guys are pros. Is there a study or something that indicates that they hit the fairways less often, or whatever, late in a round?
If a private organization wanted to excluded on group or another, then the Government should be powerless the prevent them. If John Doe wanted to have a KKK Golf Club where only white, heterosexual, Christians can play, then it should be that organizations right to do so and say who can or can’t be members. The excluded group is not harmed by the exclusion as long as the organization remains in private hands. If it uses payer tax subsides, then it would be obliged to follow non-discrimination rules set down by the Government.
Now I don’t happen to believe that a private organization that excludes like the hypothetical KKK Golf Club would be successful in the long term, so it would be doomed to failure by its excessive exclusionary practices, but isn’t my place to say that can’t do want they want to do in the way the want to do it.
All this “private organization” stuff is just so much smoke and mirrors.
For one thing, the PGA is not a “private organization” in the sense that, say, the Boy Scouts are. Anyone – anyone – who pays the entry fee and submits two recommendation letters can play in the three-stage qualifying tournament. The 35 best from stage 3 automatically earn a spot on the tour. The remainder can still earn a spot by winning three tournaments in a season or finishing in the Top 15 in the Nike Tour. And, FTR, carts are allowed in stages 1 and 2 of the qualifying tournament.
But you know what? Even if it was a private organization, it wouldn’t matter. As the PGA itself notes on its website, “Title I of the ADA prohibits private employers, employment agencies, labor organizations, and joint labor-management committees from discriminating against any qualified individual with a disability regarding any term, condition and privilege of employment.” And Title III states that the ADA applies to public accommodations and commercial facilities, including private businesses.
And those rules state that an employer must make reasonable accommodations for a disabled person who can otherwise perform the “essential functions” of a job, “essential” being defined by the ADA as functions that are fundamental and not marginal. If carrying one’s own clubs is not considered an “essential function” for playing golf on the PGA Tour, I don’t see how the PGA can reasonably argue that walking rather than riding between holes is essential. The USGA and St. Andrews don’t require walking in their rules. And the PGA itself allows carts on the Seniors Tour.
Even with the cart, Martin is going to suffer pain and fatigue during the portions of the course that he does walk which will far exceed that of the rest of the golfers. And you call that an advantage?
Sheesh. The Court can’t win. When it sides with the Boy Scouts, it takes it on the chin from the left, and when it sides with Martin, it takes it from the right.
I think the PGA was mostly worried about other golfers using this ruling to gain the use of carts when it would be beneficial to them. Along the lines of “ooh! I hurt my back/ankle/foot and can’t walk the course, gimme a cart.” They could’ve gotten around that, IMHO, by setting up fairly restrictive rules allowing cart use, maybe including a ruling by a PGA approved doctor.
With regards to the KKK Golf Club, remember that these golfers are not just playing a game, they are earning a living. You cannot restrict someones ability to work based on color or disability, that’s why Casey won. If he was fighting against a private Country Club that doesn’t allow carts on their course, I don’t know that the outcome would’ve been the same.
pldennison wrote:
By “private organization,” I believe they mean one that doesn’t receive any government funding.
So the question becomes: Is the PGA a private employer, employment agency, labor organization, or joint labor-management committee with respect to the golfers that play in its tournaments? The answer is a resounding no. The golfers are not its employees – you don’t see 'em sending a W2 form to Tiger Woods – nor is the PGA a union.
So then, what about Title III? Is the PGA a public accomodation or a commercial facility? With respect to the golfers, the PGA is a contest. You pay the entry fee, you play the game, and if you’re good enough you win and receive a trophy and perhaps a cash prize. Does that make it a “public accomodation”?
Out of idle curiosity, what would those of you who think that the PGA should not have to accomodate him consider to be an acceptable level of accomodation of handicaps within a private organization? What settings should it apply to?
If you had said this to my face in real life, I would have punched you in the jaw. If you feel like nastily mocking someone who suffers from a painful disability, I for one would appreciate it if you took it elsewhere.
A private organization should accommodate handicaps as it deems fit to promote its and its members own goals and interests. The organization would have to consider the possible handicaps potential members could have and weigh it against how exclusionary policies may or may not adversely effect the organization.
I don’t hope he sucks because he’s handicapped. I hope he sucks because it will prove this to be a meaningless argument, and we’ll all (me, anyway…) get a good laugh over it.
The argument over whether the government can force a private organization to change its rules is rather pointless. It can. That’s one of the principal assumptions underlying the ADA and several laws. That’s the rules of the game. The Supreme Court cannot simply decide now that such practice offends its sensibilities and throw it out the window. Legally, the government can make the PGA change its rules.
As for whether Casey Martin is being granted an unfair advantage by not having to walk, I think that’s rather preposterous. Did the PGA provide any evidence that walking actually affects the outcome of the game?
SPOOFE
If you’d like to read more about the “massive advantage” Casey Martin has, you might be interested in Rick Reilly’s column from the latest Sports Illustrated issue. I especially like the part where he describes Martin’s leg as “look[ing] like a baseball bat somebody had used to hit a thousand rocks.” It’s just a shame they abridged the online version of the article. The print version includes this:
It seems Martin’s opponents don’t have any problems with his so-called “advantage.”
As glee has already pointed out, you don’t have to immediately take a swing. You get all the time you want.
Gee, you don’t know much about golf yourself, do you?
Go back. Read again. The key word here is important. Also, walking to your ball is not a rule of golf. Check out Monty’s post. (You don’t know much about golf, do you?) It’s a league rule. Leagues change their rules sometimes, and they make exceptions for others. Go look at my first post. The PGA already make exceptions for some rules.
I agree. Golf is completely meaningless, isn’t it? 
I’m assuming you meant without there, and I’d just like to once again direct you to my first post. The PGA has a rule about having to qualify for tournaments. For each tournament, they allow a certain number of (GASP) exceptions to that rule. (You don’t know much about golf, do you?) It seems like they don’t have any problems about bending one rule, but bending another will ruin the game?
You mean like when Congress passed anti-trust and child labor laws for businesses?
How is an exclusionary regulation fairer than an inclusionary one? If Tiger decides he’d like a cart, let him have a cart. That would allow Martin to play, and even out the “tremendous advantage” ( :rolleyes: ) he gets.
I was responding to Raziel’s post, “Walk 4-5 miles, and hit a ball 3-5 times per hole. Then you’ll see how taxing walking 18 is.” Once you read for context, you can see it was relevant to what I was responding to.
Silly me! I was wondering why Scotty was taking so long to beam me up! Thanks, you’ve been helpful. :rolleyes:
Nice strawman, but, once again, reading for context would show that I was describing how something that was once considered to be part of the game, part of the challenge, isn’t anymore. Now, what does this mean? It means that just because something is now considered to be part of the game does not mean that it will always be or even should always be considered sacred and unassailable. That’s the relevance.
What about when courts ruled baseball couldn’t use the reserve clause? Major League Baseball is a private organization, but it still must obey federal law. The reserve clause violated the law.
Once again, walking is not a necessary part of golf.
It doesn’t sound to me like the PGA has a problem letting their older golfers use carts. You don’t know much about golf, do you?
If I walk a mile I’ll often get blisters on my feet. If I walk two I WILL, and be very tired by the end of the walk. I’m not in the best of shape, but I don’t make my living doing something that can require walking long distances. If I was a golfer and planned on playing in a tournament that prohibited the use of carts, I would probably work on my physical condition in the weeks leading up to it, unless I rarely used a cart anyway and it was normal for me (I know a 3 mile walk is nothing for some people, and back before I had a car I did it occasionally, but I was probably in better shape back then too). I imagine a lot of pro golfers do the same. This would be unfair to those who have worked to prepare themselves for it should it set a precedent, which it most likely will.
I’ve only watched parts of a few golf tournaments, but even I’m aware that endurance is an important part of golf, and that younger, more athletic golfers gain an advantage over the old overweight ones as the game progresses. Someone mentioned baseball - the pitcher is required to be able to walk to the mound. I doubt the pitcher moves as far during a baseball game as a golfer does during an 18 hole game of golf.
I just can’t see why we need to argue what golf is (pretty boring if you ask me). The question is whether the PGA or the courts should decide the rules. I say the PGA.
I set a contest, I set the rules. The PGA says walking is part of what you have to do to win. You don’t like it? Go start a different contest with rules you like.
This is ridiculous.
And yet, this is exactly what the PGA is being forced to do: discriminate between handicapped and non-handicapped individuals. One gets to use a cart, the other doesn’t.
Treating him like all the other players (i.e. not discriminating) would be to expect him to walk as the others do.
The PGA is forced to do nothing of the sort. They have to allow Martin a cart, but there’s nothing stopping them from offering a cart to any other golfer.
I agree with a private organization’s rights to set its own rules and I can see that the PGA is probably just trying to uphold a tradition.
I would hope that the PGA’s position on this issue is one of one of being torn between accommodating Martin and upholding tradition.
I am a firm believer in tradition but the PGA has made exceptions before and it is showing a cold heart by not doing the same now.
It is a common sense issue. The other players don’t mind his request and his disease makes up for any advantage he might gain from riding in the cart. What’s the problem?
I have an idea. The PGA allows caddies so I will volunteer my services to caddie Mr. Martin during his tournaments. I know less than shit about golf but I know how to walk and have been blessed with legs to do so. So, if anyone can find out if he has to walk or if he just can’t ride between holes, I will pick up his bags AND Mr. Martin and carry him to the freakin hole.
BTW-The cart rule has nothing to do with fatigue. The PGA doesn’t want cart track all over the place. It’s all about protecting the grass so it looks good on TV.
Walking is not that hard if you have healthy legs. Walking with a bag full of clubs is a little harder, that is why they allow caddies. Golf is a lazyman’s sport and is popular for that reason.
The PGA will accommodate laziness but not a true disability and some of you agree with this. I hope that none of you, or your children, ever find yourselves in the position Mr. Martin is in, to be good enough at any sport to compete at the Pro level but not be allowed to do so because of one rule that has zero to do with the actual play of the game. But, if you ever do find yourself in this position and would benefit from my help, just call and I will do what I can even if this means carrying you on my back.
And Raziel, I think that Casey Martin is so determined to show that he can actually PLAY golf that he would walk between the hole and would put his every last effort into going as far as he could. I think he would walk until his legs actually snapped and he fell to the ground. We would all get to see this on live TV, that would be hilarious wouldn’t it?
Yeah, I’d definitely have to tape that to watch it and laugh over and over again.
While we’re at it, why don’t we just round up all the usless cripples and execute them? They’re just another burden on society.
Satisfied?