While I agree with virtually everything my rational brother gobear has to say, I think he perhaps should not rag on satirical puppet shows. Our own government shut down the Federal Theatre Project, accusing it of spreading communist propaganda. And the US government was hardly the mouldering tyranny that was Tsarist absolutism. They did puppet shows.
Those puppets have power, man.
But…But…Where is the fun in that?
They had DRUMS man! DRUMS! I bet There were even paintings with anti-war images! “Bring down Bush” T-shirts even!
Jesse Jackson was there for pete sake! How much more serious can you be? Not to mention that guy who was in Vietnam…What’s his name? You know…The guy!
You neanderthals just wouldn’t understand TRUE social reform, so just sit back and chill out dude.
Passes gobear a roach
Dude, fight the power! giggle
There are clearly three classes in this debate:
[ol][li]The 1 percenters and their direct allies: Directly responsible for the irrational push to war.[/li]
[li]The passionate optimists: The protesters who do everything in their power to protest and take action both within and without the system, despite their possible ineffectiveness.[/li]
[li]The ironic pessimists: Those who have given up the struggle, have lost their passion, and wish everyone else were passionless, too – so they wouldn’t feel so bad about enjoying evil’s largesse.[/ol][/li]
I see quite a few of the third class here.
“Peace is better than any alternative”?
?
Oh really?
Gobear’s incessantly spewed, “Yeah, dancing in a drum circle is going to be really effective in convincing the Bush administration of the folly of invading Iraq.”
No, but showing that there is solidarity will. Really, I can’t believe that you are that naive.
"Jiminy, if you people had been runningthe Russian Revolution, the Romanovs would be in power to this very day. "
If the Russian Revolutionists were running the rally there would be bloodshed plain and simple. The president and all the other people in the ruling class would be assassinated and a totalitarian regime would take over for nearly a century. That isn’t what the people I was with want. Find a better analogy next time. The ralliers were there to show dissenting opinion. We work within the law to get things changed. Yes, there is an active anti-war lobby going on in Congress.
For what it is worth I think the vast minority of the people who were actually in attendence were socialists. Please keep your spewing out of it. I know of a small handful of people who would want a regime change to socialism, I am not one of them.
The simple fact is that people were there to show their dissenting opionion to the war. The people there did so within their constitutional rights of assembly, free speach, etc. You should have been there, too if you are so against it. Since you weren’t, you obviously can’t speak of it. Next.
You listened to Al Sharpton?
Ding! We have a winner!
Notice, too, dorkusmalorkusmafia that Gobear asks each of us in turn if we’ve lobbied members of congress, before making the accusation that “you guys haven’t tried any of the known methods of effecting change in public policy–voting, appealing to your representatives and Senators, organizing a serious anti-war lobbying effort.”
Oh wait, no he doesn’t!
But at least he shows us the error of our ways, describing the manifold ways he’s better helped the cause he believes in –
Wait, he doesn’t do that either!
Wow, then I’m reall curious how he got more out of his Saturday than us – wanking to American Idol 2, perhaps?
I stamp thee Third Class, Gobear. Next!
No, I despise Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson for that matter. I wasn’t there to listen to the political propoganda. I was there to show my dissent of the war.
This is the seed for a very interesting debate, I think. I suppose we can push it a little more here, and if it gets moved, so be it.
It may show that there is solidarity, but it also demonstrates that as a group, the progressive protesters can be safely ignored. They are not speaking a language that seems to have any relevance to this (or any other) administration. They show up to these cathartic protests, sing and dance a little, and return home, spending their money and dedicating their time in largely the same way they did before. Their behavior further alienates them from people who also oppose the war due to their excesses.
This shows solidarity of a bunch of lightweights with little willingness or wherewithal to use what resources they do have effectively.
I don’t think anyone is calling the demonstration unconstitutional, just silly and juvenile.
I don’t think this is particularly rational, but I suspect you said it in a moment of pique. If a member of Ace’s third class were able to use his resources in a way that actually accomplished something meaningful, would he have the right to say that “since you didn’t do it, you obviously can’t speak of it?” I doubt it.
Wanking to American Idol, wanking to Cynthia McKinney with a bunch of baked college students, what difference, really?
Maeglin:
I agree there’s an interesting point there. I think the point was made pretty well in Forest Gump.
If you remember that scene where that Hippy slaps Jenny, and Forest just jumps across the room and beats the guy up. It gets broken up and Forest says:
“I’m sorry I ruined your Black Panther party.”
I think that summarizes the whole point of the movie.
Maeglin, I missed where Gobear actually stated that he had implemented a more efficient solution, or indeed any solution. Lacking that, both his argument, and your support is meritless.
Perhaps you’d care to point it out to all of us?
Rubbish. In the 5th century AD, leeches and bloodletting were the frequent treatments for many diseases. They weren’t particularly effective, and they often did more harm than good. Yet people liked them and often used them anyway. But there were certainly objectors, who questioned the merits of this kind of medicine. But since they didn’t make great advances in medicine on their own, was their objection to such barbaric practices “meritless”?
Talk amongst yourselves.
Sure, but it’s a bit of a long story, Ace. And to be perfectly honest, most people aren’t interested. They prefer to submerge their brains in a mob, bang drums, and think they are accomplishing something. Because that doesn’t require either much cash or much ruthlessness, and tends not to come up against a whole lot of adversity.
I am not ideologically committed against the possibility of war with Iraq, I just think it’s a piss-poor idea. And I think many intelligent people in the White House know this. So yeah, I prefer to allocate my resources for dissent elsewhere.
If you have no “better way,” you may in fact, be a whiny, useless, and utterly dismissable member of the third class.
But perhaps not. I’m certainly interested – exactly where would you be allocating your resources for dissent?
And the reason you make these kind of slams in MPSIMS, as opposed to starting a pit thread, would be…?
:rolleyes:
Because I started the thread and it’s mutated?
:rolleyes: yourself.
Ace, you don’t know anything about me. I worked very hard to learn what I know, and the idea of simply throwing pearls before swine rather revolts me.
With respect to your judgment of me as “whiny” and “useless,” I believe the written record on the SDMB alone speaks more eloquently than I possible could.
I was a professional political activist, Ace, who worked on some fairly high-profile issue campaigns. Creationism in Kansas. Library internet filtering software. We wrote the book on the Supreme Court controversy in 2000. The Ashcroft confirmation campaign. Et cetera and et cetera.
I didn’t go to occasional peace rallies: my organization ran events all the time, in which we were able to mobilize political and parapolitical figures of considerable respectability.
Events in which we were able to bring in significant amounts of cash, as well.
Myself, I made peanuts. Barely enough to make ends meet. In a neighborhood some may fairly consider a ghetto.
I’ll tell you where I allocate(d) my resources, Ace. Not to paying rent in neighborhoods like Park Slope, that’s for sure.
Moderator’s Notes:
Mutated, schmutated. That’s no excuse. Any more remarks like that from anybody, and I’m shipping this thing over to the Pit.
UncleBeer: Does “pearls before swine count?” How’s’bout being called useless? Just wondering.
Maeglin: I said, to clarify, that those who do not execute on a game plan are just whining. I didn’t say you, specifically, were surely in that category.
While I commend your personal dedication, I do think it’s possible to be involved and yet not consider the rent money as an “allocable resource.” You still haven’t told us what the name of the group was, or why you use the past tense; nor has anyone asked what events I coordinate or attend. All of which strike me as three extremely relevant points to your and thesis.
P.S. This is all very conspiracal … which book on the 2000 events? Are we not in the inner sanctum? Inquiring minds want to know…
Absolutely. We had several volunteers who were frequently in and out of our office. Marlene, wherever you are, bless your soul. These were people who spent hour after hour doing mind-numbing, unrewarding work. But every phone call they made or envelope they stuffed…yeah, I know you get the idea. Good people, all of them.
I wasn’t trying to be mysterious, but it certainly did not seem relevant. I work there no longer because I decided that I wanted to go back to school, which requires more money than working for a nonprofit permits. So instead of protesting on Saturday, I was probably doing my economics homework, so that pretty soon I will be able to get out of my current career and do some real damage to policies I oppose. With knowledge and useful abilities to analyze policy quantitatively, not ideologically.
I worked for People For the American Way, a multi-issue constitutional liberties activist organization. We were not permitted to do any partisan electioneering due to our tax status, but our feelings on such matters were usually clear and obvious.
What you do or do not do is not really relevant to my opinion, Ace, that self-gratifying and harmless displays of ideology are not a particularly effective ways of bringing about change. I am sure you are very involved in all sorts of commendable things. Your personal life is not an issue I have ever broached, or ever wished to broach for that matter.
It would be an interesting exercise to study the history of ideological-driven protest, but it seems to me that change really only occurs when people actually get shot while protesting. They are great for whipping up one’s own base and keeping ideological constituents active and angry, but no violence, no change.
I’m not making a strong claim here, this is just what a brief survey of my memory and my instincts say.
Our report is called Courting Disaster. Though it’s been two years, I am sure the .pdf is still located on the PFAW website. It was heavily referenced in the media and by other major players in the progressive activist movement, and I honestly believe it was the most important research contribution to the entire issue.
Happy reading, it’s good stuff.