It’s been said, “Everyone talks about the weather, but no one does anything about it.”
Now while it’s not entirely inconceivable that there’s some nefarious undercurrent of latent racism in Lucas’ characters, is it not also possible that he’s just lacking inspiration?
Given the community of highly-intelligent, perceptive, and creative people here on SDMB, I propose we do something about this: Create a race for Mr. Lucas.
This race must be humanoid enough to interact with humans, and charismatic enough to successfully carry either a leading or prominent supporting role; but it may not possess any characteristic that can be identified with ANY terrestrial culture, positive or negative, past or present.
Just to jump universes briefly, I once read an article (which I unfortunately am unable to track down at this time) claiming that the Ferengi on Star Trek were obviously intended as stereotypical Jews. The article cited such things as the exaggerated facial features, the obsession with business and money etc. Also IIRC the word “Ferengi” means foreigner.
Some people really need to, in the words of that great actor, singer and director William Shatner :
I think you are trying to say that the movie reflects the stereotypes that rasists would have, but you personaly do not believe that the movies really portray them and they would only be seen by those that are racists.
(No I’m not being flipant, I’m just trying to get a fully understanding of your point.)
Well then why was it that when my friends and I got out of the theater, the first thing that came out of our mouths was, “That Jamaican alien HAD TO GO”.
And–I repeat–a Jamaican did his voice.
So did we just imagine the whole Jamaican thing? According to Kwyjibo, we’re racist for even associating poor Jar-Jar with Jamaicans.
Seeing as how many people noticed these stereotypes–not just one organization or one “race” of people–I don’t think the “Boy Who Cried Wolf” is an appropriate analogy.
I don’t think I’m being dense, I’m just trying to point out how you are coming across.
If I, as a Jew, disconnect myself from the stereotype (ie, I don’t have a hook nose, I don’t have an accent, I don’t consider myself greedy) why the hell should I connect myself with Watto, who has nothing in common with me? Why should I even think that he is a Jewish stereotype? I know you are not the only one who thinks this, but I don’t think there is enough evidence that he shares characteristics with the negative Jewish stereotype. Where does his slaving fit in? His talent with electronics?
It just seems to me that connecting Watto with a Jewish stereotype is incredibly farfetched. THe same can not be said with Jar Jar, just because he did have a black actors playing him.
This is what I’m saying, I don’t think it is intentional, I don’t think it is necessarily bad, but the aliens from episode one were based on stereotypes. The aliens from the original films weren’t.
IMHO, Lucas is using stereotypes in the same manner as the 30’s and 40’s serials that are the predecessors to, and inspiration for Star Wars. In other words, they are cheap and facile alternatives to real character development. Lucas isn’t so much racist as lazy. For example, the “Ahhh, Sooo, Charlie Chan Inscrutable Chinaman” 1930’s stereotype was slapped on a bunch of fish-like alien conspirators.
That these stereotypes don’t necessarily match reality is beside the point. Lucas is merely recycling them from ancient cinematic history.
I’m saying that the characters I have singled out fit very closely with stereotypes that exist in our society.
Like grendel72, I do not think they were put in intentionally. I also think that they are more symptomatic of lack of creativity than racism.
I have said nothing about racism. At all. You can rely on stereotypes without being racist. It just means you’re lazy and uncreative when it comes to developing characters.
Finally, you don’t have to be overly sensitive to order to link Watto with Shylock or Jar-Jar with Step-n-Fetchitt. There isn’t that much of a stretch between these character pairs, even if one has wings or flappy ears and the other one doesn’t.
Most importantly, you can recognize stereotyped images without believing in them. I sincerely hope LaurAnge understands this point.
The problem with point A is that the actor who gave voice to Jar-Jar is, in fact, black and Lucas allowed him to develop the “accent” (even tailoring some dialog with other Gungans to make use of it after the actor had developed the voice). As to “looking Jamaican,” see the next point.
My problem with points B and C (and any claim that a stalk-eyed, large-footed, enormuous-eared creature somehow “looks Jamaican”) is that the views thus presented are very close to the periodic claims of back-masking that issue from the Religious Right against that Satanic Rock and Roll–you only see it or hear it after it has been pointed out.
The Trade Federation were “immediately” identified as “Asian” stereotypes, yet in the first four discussions I saw, the “Asians” were identified by the incensed people protesting the movie as Chinese, Japanese, and East Indian. In other words, the word got out that they were stereotyping Asians ahead of the word regarding which Asians were being insulted and all the people who “saw” the connection picked up different peoples from Asia to have been insulted. (FTR, Monstro’s perception is only the second time I have seen the Japanese identified as the victims. Most of my other conversations have concentrated on Chinese (specifically Hong Kong) or the East Indians who have dominated commerce in the South Pacific since WWII.)
Similarly, I went into my first screening of The Phantom Menace expecting to see Watto as a sort of blue Jewish goblin from the reports I had heard from the scandalized, and I simply could not see it. I got the impression that various people were projecting their Jewish stereotypes onto a character that was pretty much free of them. I saw him more as the old geezer in the mostly deserted Western town running the auto parts store. His accent was not particularly Jewish or Russian that I could discern–certainly it had no Yiddish-influenced inflections–and he did not have any stereotypically “semitic” body motions (elbows tucked in to the sides while the hands wave out, wringing off hands, etc.).
I’m afraid that I saw most of the stereotypes imposed from the outside rather than emanating from the writing ot direction of Lucas.
I didn’t see him that way. I guess I’m one of the rare people that didn’t hate Jar-Jar. I thought he was a bit annoying, but his heart was in the right place. And I didn’t make the Jamaican connection. I guess I’m sheltered, I dunno. Or maybe it was the weird protruding eyes and total alien appearance that threw me off. Maybe I wasn’t “looking” to find a stereotype. That could be it.
Funny, I have heard other people make the claim that these characters are sterotypical. The funny thing is, the people I talked to thought these characters were Italian. So - which is it to be? Golly gee, we’ve decided they are racist stereotypes, we’d better be able to settle on one race, don’t you think?
Funny, I am familiar with the stereotype for Jews, but I never saw this in Watto. Maybe because I wasn’t looking for it? I think the blue flying part, and the fact that he had a hose for a nose threw me off.
So, you needed someone else to help point out to you what parts should be considered stereotypical? Golly, I guess I hang out with friends who aren’t as up on these things. They only saw the “Italian” stereotype (that you claim is actually “Japanese”). I guess I’d better hang out with a more stereotype-astute group of friends. Wouldn’t want to miss out on any latent racist stereotypes during my movie viewing experience.
He had a noticeable Russian (or similar) accent. If he hadn’t had such an accent, maybe the link between him and stereotyped Jew would be much more tenuous. For Watto, it’s a combination of things. He’s a merchant. He’s greedy. He’s shrewd. There are things that may not fit into the stereotype of an evil “Shylock” (perhaps the slave thing), but there is enough there to make some people’s eyebrows rise.
I might lead myself to believe that Watto isn’t a stereotype. But I certaintly understand why someone might believe he is (and this is really what I have been trying to say all along).
I separate myself from stereotypes based on black people all the time. It doesn’t mean that when I see them, I can pretend that they aren’t there or that they–in some way–aren’t insulting.
Wow. Tomndebb made some similar points, almost simultaniously. (So, the “Italian” aliens are either Chinese, Japanese or East Indian? We are going all over the board with them!)
Do you honestly think Lucas sat down and said, “I’m gonna model Jar Jar after a Jamacian.”???
At the time, Nien Nunb’s language, to me, sounded like the languages spoken in South Asia. {IE: India et al.) But it is really a modified Kenyan dialect. (Peter Chen’s page apparently noted this but I can’t file the link anymore.)
People didn’t make a fuss about that. Why not? Because folks back then didn’t have a preocupation with Political Correctness and were not looking for racial undertones where none exsited.
These are the questions I have distilled from this conversation:
If someone does not see stereotyped imagery, does that mean it doesn’t it exist? How about the reverse? If someone does notice something that might be stereotypic, does that mean it was intended to be as such? And does it mean this person is racist?
If there are multiple interpretations of what a character sounds/looks like, what does this mean? Especially in the context of a science fiction flick?
Is the world full of overly sensitive people? Or people who don’t really care?
I want everyone to write a paper on each of the above questions. Double-spaced, 12-font, one-inch margins. At least one page per question but no more than two. Due tomorrow by 5:00PM. Slide them under my door if I’m not in my office. And NO, you cannot get an extension!
Not necessarily. It might simply be something they never learned to associate with a given culture.
Again, not necessarily, though it might indicate they’re a bit too sensitive about the subject, and/or they’re deliberately looking for it.
Nazi characterizations of the Jews in WWII propaganda was pretty blatant. The little pygmy guy in old Bugs Bunny cartoons with huge lips and great big white teeth was pretty blatant. There’s hundreds of such examples that don’t require one to squint at them like a stereogram to see the offensive qualities.
It means people see what they want to see.
Yes.
The Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal ate my homework.
You may have a point there. Having to comeup with “alien” accents for the english language is probably really hard. Yoda spoke with an accent, but didn’t seem stereotyped. He seems inspired by the Degobrah of japanese legend, but he doesn’t speak with an “ethnic” accent. Instead he speaks like a muppet.
I think, actually, the talent with electronics comes from the Lower East Side. To me, Watto came off as a send up on a “New York Wheeler-Dealer” type, and at different times, and in various neighborhoods, that New York wheeler-dealer (is that even a word? it looks ridiculous in print!) mindset has been associatied with a number of ethnic groups, including Jews, Italians, and Arabs. These ethnic groups seemed to be mentioned a lot in discussions of Watto.
I’m going with the theory that Lucas made a deliberate attempt to create an Earth-like mannerism for this character, and that the audience can easily make the connection to various ethnic groups that are sometimes traditionally associated with this mannerism. Oh, and that Lucas was demented for not seeing the resulting problem from a mile away. Actually, I do think he lives in his own world, and more power to him for it, so I’m amazed that no one else involved in the production raised this as a potential, unintentional problem. Although, on the fourth hand, working on a Star Wars film probably sucks you in to GeorgeLucasWorld so it might be next to impossible to take the necessary step back to see the big picture. You know, one of the reasons I don’t post in the Pit much is that I start arguing with myself.
This reflects a big problem with Episode 1 – that Lucas seemed to think it would be funny or insightful or something to create more situations that were easily related to something on Earth. A little like the cantina scene in the original Star Wars coming off as the kind of bar that you would find near a bus station. The cantina scene worked for various reasons, most notibly because Lucas maintained a blend of familiar (the band pauses, but then starts up almost immediately when someone gets his arm cut off) and completely new and exciting (he got his arm cut off with a FREAKIN LIGHT SABRE!). Poor George is now battling the fact that his universe is now almost as familiar to his viewers as our own. The balance doesn’t work anymore the way it used to – we’re not THAT excited by pod-racing aliens to stop our minds from making the cultural associations that are fairly natural to people living in 2002. I think he got back on his game vis a vis this particular issue in AOTC.
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