What do have against Orlando Jones???
Hold on a sec - I’d really like to get to the bottom of this, 'cos I just don’t get it.
If someone white had done the voice - Jim Carrey for instance - would the character still have been “black”? If so, how do you come to this conclusion?
On the other hand, if you are saying that Donkey is “black” only because the person doing his voice is black, then you clearly cannot claim that the character itself is a racial stereotype.
Ok, I have just done an overnight shift at work, which I am not used to, so I may be a little punchy. I was also a little more sharp than I meant to be with Kwyjibo.
Let me explain my reasoning about Donkey. The reason the probucers hired Eddie Murphy is that they wanted Eddie Murphey. Eddie Murphy is a funny motherfucker, he is also black. A large part of Donkey in Shreck was culturally black, the sensibility, the singing (“You got to try a little tenderness”).
If the exact same dialog was done by a white actor, Donkey would still be culturally black. We’re talking here about a case where there was obviously a lot of improv and the actor put a lot of himself in the role- Anyone else reading the exact same lines that were in the movie would be playing Eddie Murphy.
Oh, and spooje asks
That sonofabitch convinced me to drink a 7-up. That stuff is nasty. 
Seriously- I know someone, an Emmenem wannabe, who cracks racist jokes and thinks Orlando Jones is funny. It’s just a bad scene when a goofy white boy does the Schlitz Malt Liquor routine from one of Orlando’s movies.
I think those 7-11 commercials were LOL funny. And he did have the great line “Theres ALWAYS time for lubricant”.
The new 7-11 guy is lame.
What were we talking about again?
OK - so it seems that we agree that Donkey isn’t black; Eddie Murphy is.
I’d just like to hark back to this statement then:
The thing is, in all the Star Wars examples I have seen here, it isn’t a case of noticing that “a character resembles a stereotype”. It seems to me that we are talking about “noticing that a character has a particular accent, then noticing that a few (not all) of the character’s personality / mannerisms / activities could be considered to be stereotypes of a person with a similar accent”.
The thing is, this just boils down to reverse-stereotyping - the only way that racial slurs can be found is by emphasising the traits that fit the pattern, and ignoring those that don’t.
The “Dumbo” crows are clearly intended to be black “minstrel” characters. The entire characterisation plays to this profile.
On the other hand, only carefully selected parts of just-as-carefully selected Star Wars characters fit into racist stereotypes. Take the characters as a whole, and the comparisons become ridiculous.
Let’s try this one on for size.
Have there been many recent action movies were there has been a silly, goofy, funny WHITE side-kick?
I’m betting the number of these movies are dwarved by the number of movies with silly, goof, funny BLACk side-kicks.
Just think about it for a minute.
The fact that Donkey was voiced by a black man–and seemingly personified “blackness”–is significant in itself. The creators could have hired a number of white actors to do his voice (Jim Carrey, Robin Williams, Billy Crystal, Steve Martin, etc), but they chose not to. Does this mean they are racist? Hell no! Does it necessarily mean that Donkey represents a stereotype? No.
Does it mean that Donkey resembles the stereotype of the silly, goofy, funny, BLACK side-kick? YES!
Can this example be used to understand the controversy behind the characters in TPM? YES!
“Love a duck, me beads!” can you tell me where that quote came from?
If not, I can see why you didn’t interpret the aliens as being stereotypes. Thankfully, unless you are an old movie buff you haven’t really been exposed to the stereotypes. When someone who has not been exposed to a stereotype sees something similar to the stereotype they will say “that is nothing like what the stereotype is supposed to represent.” A stereotype is a broad caricature, what we are discussing here is a caricature of a caricature.
Classic movie buffs and people who belong to the stereotyped minorities are the most likely to notice it. Yes it is being very sensitive to something not everyone notices, is it being over sensitive? I don’t think so. When an interpretation can be reached independently, I have to think something is there.
Is it a problem? I’m not too sure. as Hamish pointed out, movies are becoming our mythology, and there are some things you don’t want to preserve for posterity. On the other hand the stereotypes are seperated from what they were originally meant to represent, and therefore much more harmless than the old movies with the undiluted stereotypes. It definitely makes for a less interesting story. Yes, as Dragon Ash pointed out stereotypes are used in a majority of stories of any sort, but they rob the audience of true characterization, and it is a cheap shortcut.
I’ve rambled on enough for now.
“Love a duck, me beads!” can you tell me where that quote came from?
If not, I can see why you didn’t interpret the aliens as being stereotypes. Thankfully, unless you are an old movie buff you haven’t really been exposed to the stereotypes. When someone who has not been exposed to a stereotype sees something similar to the stereotype they will say “that is nothing like what the stereotype is supposed to represent.” A stereotype is a broad caricature, what we are discussing here is a caricature of a caricature.
Classic movie buffs and people who belong to the stereotyped minorities are the most likely to notice it. Yes it is being very sensitive to something not everyone notices, is it being over sensitive? I don’t think so. When an interpretation can be reached independently, I have to think something is there.
Is it a problem? I’m not too sure. as Hamish pointed out, movies are becoming our mythology, and there are some things you don’t want to preserve for posterity. On the other hand the stereotypes are seperated from what they were originally meant to represent, and therefore much more harmless than the old movies with the undiluted stereotypes. It definitely makes for a less interesting story. Yes, as Dragon Ash pointed out stereotypes are used in a majority of stories of any sort, but they rob the audience of true characterization, and it is a cheap shortcut.
I’ve rambled on enough for now.
“Love a duck, me beads!” can you tell me where that quote came from?
If not, I can see why you didn’t interpret the aliens as being stereotypes. Thankfully, unless you are an old movie buff you haven’t really been exposed to the stereotypes. When someone who has not been exposed to a stereotype sees something similar to the stereotype they will say “that is nothing like what the stereotype is supposed to represent.” A stereotype is a broad caricature, what we are discussing here is a caricature of a caricature.
Classic movie buffs and people who belong to the stereotyped minorities are the most likely to notice it. Yes it is being very sensitive to something not everyone notices, is it being over sensitive? I don’t think so. When an interpretation can be reached independently, I have to think something is there.
Is it a problem? I’m not too sure. as Hamish pointed out, movies are becoming our mythology, and there are some things you don’t want to preserve for posterity. On the other hand the stereotypes are seperated from what they were originally meant to represent, and therefore much more harmless than the old movies with the undiluted stereotypes. It definitely makes for a less interesting story. Yes, as Dragon Ash pointed out stereotypes are used in a majority of stories of any sort, but they rob the audience of true characterization, and it is a cheap shortcut.
I’ve rambled on enough for now.
Actually, not many action films have sidekicks at all. But lets’ just check movies from the last decade.
True Lies? Tom Arnold, white guy
Judge Dredd? Rob Schneider, white guy
Independence Day? Will Smith , black leading man, Jeff Goldblum, white sidekick
Men In Black? Will Smith got the comedy lines, but he was definitely not a sidekick.
Eraser? no sidekick, but black love interest (Vanessa Williams)
Gladiator? No sidekick
X-Men? black superheroine (Halle Berry), no sidekick
Blade I and II? Wesley Snipes, black hero, Kris Kristofferson, white sidekick
I’m not seeing what you want me to see.
Um, this seems mutually contradictory and illogical to me. Pray elucidate.
[quote]
If not, I can see why you didn’t interpret the aliens as being stereotypes. Thankfully, unless you are an old movie buff you haven’t really been exposed to the stereotypes.
Grendel72, you are being ridiculous. Many people here, including me are old movie buffs, and yes, we are familiar with the old racial stereotypes.
BUT,
A. Nobody who claims to see the racism in Star Wars can agree on the ethnicity stereotyped (the Nemoideans) or they parochially extend American ethnicty to the world (thinking that Maoris are Mexicans)
B. The ethnic stereotypes are not presented in SW–the Nemoideans do not look like Japanese and JAR Jar doesn’t sound Jamaican.
I already demonstrated what a Yiddish speaker sounds like in English, yet your only counterargument was to compare one movie character to another movie character.
Go find an episode of The Goldbergs and compare Watto’s dialect. There’s no way he sounds Jewish (I thought Greek myself).
monstro:
Sure there are white goofy side-kicks. Martin Riggs (Lethal Weapon 1 - 1,000,000), Mini-Me (Austin Powers II), Owen Wilson (Shaghai Noon). I’m thinking for a minute, but I’m not convinced that black side-kicks outnumber white side-kicks. I’m tempted to think that this is just another case of seeing problems where there are no problems; I’d be happy to change my mind if you had a cite, though.
No - the fact that Donkey was voiced by a black man is why he “personified” this particular black man.
Or perhaps “NO”! It means that Donkey resembles an Eddie Murphy character. Nothing more, nothing less.
grendel72:
Oh my - stereotypes of stereotypes that can only be uncovered by those in the know? I think this sums up the problem. Another way to phrase this would be: “Unless you are looking for stereotypes, you will not see them in TPM”.
Do you agree that “interpreting” these stereotypes emphasising some characteristics whilst ignoring many of the others?
That should of course be:
Do you agree that “interpreting” these stereotypes involves emphasising some characteristics whilst ignoring many of the others?
PS - I don’t think it’s relevant for the reasons I’ve given above, but where the hell is that “Love a duck” quote from? It’s on the tip of my tongue, and it’s driving me potty.
It seems to me that some people in this world have a list of “stereotypical behavior” for a certain race/group of people, for instance, the “jews are all greedy” stuff. So, it seems to me that we can never have any characters in a movie that exhibit any traits that are also considered stereotypes.
For instance: People are saying Watto is greedy and shrewd, and so he fits the stereotype of a Jew. So, now are we saying that any person/thing in a movie who’s a greedy shopowner is automatically a Jewish stereotype?
Are all characters who speak in a broken english and clumsy all of a sudden black stereotypes? Or only when they’re actually portrayed/voiced by a black actor? (JarJar) It just seems to me that people are taking a list of stereotypes and finding matches.
BTW, In no way can I find a ‘Jewish’ accent on Watto…he sounds Italian to me. I put Jewish in quotes because most Jews I know talk just like me. Those that have the “typical Jewish accent” sound just like a lot of non-Jewish New Yorkers. I just don’t buy the whole thing. Sure, there are racial prejudices in some movies, but the Star Wars ones are a pretty big stretch in my opinion.
No, you’re seeing only what you want to see just so you can “win” the argument.
How can you recognize the stereotypic imagery of Eddie Griffen’s characters while denying the existence of the “black sidekick” stereotype?
That doesn’t make a bit of sense to me.
Are you telling me that Marlon Wayans in “Dungeons and Dragons” isn’t reminicent of Chris Tucker in “The Fifth Element”?
Can you seriously sit there and say that Tucker was hired to play Chan’s sidekick in the “Rush Hour” installments just because he’s a funny guy? That his race was irrevelant? And that when we see “Rush Hour” we aren’t supposed to think of the hilarious movie known as “48 Hours”, featuring another black sidekick?
Who had more footing in “Lethal Weapon”: Danny Glover or Mel Gibson?
And don’t forget Whoopie. Her role in “Ghost” was tailor-made for a black woman, complete with rolling eyes and “honey chiles” thrown in to make the white folks laugh.
If there’s an explosion or bullet shots in a movie, you can bet your bottom dollar the “sidekick” will be shown screaming their head off, eyes bugging, while grabbing on to the star of the show (Donkey, I’m looking at you, darlin’.)
Recent movies have attempted to challenge the old stereotype. In “Diehard w/ a Vengance”, Samuel L.'s character is a sidekick, but he’s hardly buffoonish. Fishburn’s character in “The Matrix” starts off as a solid main character (but it doesn’t take long for him to become a sidekick once Neo gets his act together).
It’s only recently when we’ve frequently seen actors like Denzel or Will Smith getting parts that make them stars, not co-stars. Morgan Freeman, while kept asexual in a way that a white counterpart would never be, is rarely shown in the traditional sidekick role either (“The Unforgiven” may be an exeption though). It’s getting better since the days of Buckwheat, but the stereotype is still out there, you better believe it.
[off topic]
No worries dude. I was up partying all night and had much drink…I too was a little snippy with you. We’ll call it even. 
[/off topic]
Happily.
http://www.southerndigest.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/03/08/3c87e5a5e1736
http://www.spectacle.org/1295/blacks.html
http://www.thestranger.com/2001-07-05/pullout_toc.html
http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/30/crusoe1.html
http://www.laep.org/artsonline/mrc/sambo.html
http://collections.ic.gc.ca/magic/mt12.html
The next thing you know, someone’s going to say there’s no evidence of stereotypes ANYWHERE in the media. And it won’t be funny in the least.
I don’t sound like the crows in “Dumbo” and neither do any of the black people I know. The original Amos-n-Andy didn’t sound like black people either. Does this mean the crows in “Dumbo” or Amos and Andy weren’t stereotypical of black people?
The quote was from the 1938 version of Pygmalion.
I don’t know, I can guarantee I wasn’t looking for anything when I watched TPM. I believe many people didn’t see what I saw, some did. If five people look at an abstract painting and four of them say it’s a nude descending a staircase, does that discount the fifth viewer? Does that mean the four that saw the same thing are suffering from some mass delusion?
I don’t know the answer, I know that when I read articles about the portrayal of the aliens in TPM my reaction was “somebody else noticed”.
BTW, on the subject of goofy white sidekicks- Other than Mini-Me, I would venture to say none of them are as goofy as Chris Tucker in The Fifth Element or Marlon Wayans in Dungeons & Dragons. And don’t even get me started on Cuba Gooding Junior in any recent movie. The goofy black sidekick is the action movie equivalent of the gay best friend in romantic comedies, acting to show how open the hero is while still allowing the movie to laugh at him and definitely not letting the movie address his issues.
monstro if you haven’t seen it, allow me to recomend Nurse Betty as the perfect antidote to the Chris Tucker/Marlon Wayans type character.
monstro, I notice how you conveniently left my initial argument against Watto off. So what you’re saying is, even though you ADMIT that Watto doesn’t SOUND Jewish, that because he’s a greedy shop owner it MUST be a Jewish stereotype! Please tell me you’re honestly not saying that. If that’s the case then every character on earth must be quiet and not move, so they don’t offend any group in existence.
Jman
By the time of Dumbo and Amos and Andy there was a tradition over 100 years old in which blacks said “gwine” for “going” and “nebber” for “never” and a host of similar perceived pronunciations. (I recently read a report issued by an officer in the U.S. Navy commending some black sailors for their action during the Battle of Lake Erie (1813) in which he quoted them using those sorts of elocutions.) The public had certainly come to expect a certain exaggerated and distorted speech from players that they were to consider black.
Now, what did Watto actually say that included rising inflections on declarative sentences, odd word order reflective of Yiddish constructs, or any similar phrasing that made him appear (or sound) “Jewish”? As I have already pointed out, there are a number of physical gestures stereotypically associated with Jewish shopkeepers and he used none of them. If we cannot find any language pattern (pronunciation, phrasing, etc.) that actually matches stereotypical Jewish speech, then it appears that the whole thing is based on some other aspect of the presentation–and I don’t see greedy merchants as an inherently “Jewish” part.
If it is actually there, it can be described in detail. If it cannot be described in detail, then I suspect that it is being imposed from the outside.
And no, I do not think you are “deliberately” trying to be oversensetive or racist or anything else. I am not going to ascribe motives to you, at all. I simply think you are mistaken on this point.
Monstro, Monstro, Monstro…
As I said, you’re seeign what you want to see.
Eddie Griffin isn’t a sidekick, he’s a comedic lead as in Double Team and **Undercover Brother. OK, I’ll give you The New Guy, where Griffin is definitely comic relief.
But your view of film is distorted
Didn’t see it, so can’t answer. But he played a dramatic rol in Requiem for a Dream. It was a supporting roles as the best friend, but in no way was he just “the black guy.”
[quote]
Can you seriously sit there and say that Tucker was hired to play Chan’s sidekick in the “Rush Hour” installments just because he’s a funny guy? That his race was irrevelant? And that when we see “Rush Hour” we aren’t supposed to think of the hilarious movie known as “48 Hours”, featuring another black sidekick?
A. Yeah, I can say that Tucker was hired to play the funny guy because Jackie Chan can’t do comedy. Jackie Chan did the asskiicking and Tucker did the wisecracking. Was his race irrelevant? Well, duh, of course not. He was playing the street-wise, sassy black guy, and we both agree that that IS a stereotype. But you are dead wrong on 48 Hours. Eddie Murphy was the star, and Nick Nolte was the sidekick.
Are you saying that black people can’t do comedy, ever? That’s ridiculous. I think it’s possible to be funny without being a buffoon. Eddie Murphy did it in the Beverly Hills Cop movies, and Will Smith was funny yet dignified in Men in Black.
I don’t know what "more footing means, but even though Mel Gibson is the bigger star of the two, Danny Glover’s role could have been played by a white guy and there would have been no difference. Glover’s role was color-blind.
Franlkly, I think you’re confusing character actors with sidekicks. There is a big difference.
While I still think that way too many black actors are relegated to playing hoods and thugs on TV shows and movies a la Hollywood Shuffle–excellent satire–the situation is much improved over the past decade or so.
When was the last time you saw Pigmeat Markham, Stepin Fetchit, or Mantan Moreland? Watch Spike Lee’s Bamboozled and see what black stereotyping looks like.
Re: the black crows in Dumbo. No, they don’t resemble real black people because they’re racist stereotypes. They are white people’s perception of black people, not a realistic depiction.
Jar Jar doesn’t fit that. Watch TPM again. Jar Jar doesn’t fit the stereotypical depiction of black people.
Jar Jar doesn’t shuffle.
Jar Jar doesn’t shoot craps.
Jar Jar doesn’t tap dance.
Jar Jar doesn’t speak with a black Southern accent. (“Lawdy Lawd, Massa Anakin, Ah don’t know nothin’ about birthin no babies!”)
He’s just a goofy alien.
I repeat:
Jar Jar does not resemble traditional black stereotypes!
Are you going to tell me that every goofy character in animation or SF is really black?
And if you think he sounds Caribbean, for Jah’s sake, watch a Bob Marley interview and listen to how he talks and then listen to Jar Jar.