I don’t have access to the script, or a copy of the film lying around. I mentioned the scene where Anakin returns home in episode two, because I just saw it recently. Expecting quotes is a bit much, I think.
Jar-Jar doesn’t shuffle? Aye you watching the same movie I did?
Film student, here, with a particular interest in comedies of the 30’s and 40’s. Your argument is bollocks. As has already been pointed out, “movie buffs” will recognize the actual source and inspiration for the characters-- Neimodians: sinister yet obsequious aristocrats, with speech patterns modelled after Bela Lugosi’s portrayal of Dracula. Jar-Jar: Physical comedy shamelessly lifted from Buster Keaton and Harold Lloyd, most notably from Keaton’s The Navigator, speech patterns modelled after Lucas’s kids.
You use the term stereotype as though it were freely interchangable with archetype. No argument, there are archetypical characters in Star Wars– it’s a fairy-tale. But the origins of the characters most assuredly do not lie in any ethnic stereotypes.
I don’t recall Buster Keaton ever stepping in shit, or farting for a laugh. I love Buster Keaton, stone-faced while all hell breaks loose around him. The one gag that seems similar to either comic you mentioned is when Jar-Jar gets his tongue stuck in the force field in episode one- that is the type of thing Harold Lloyd would have done (kind of).
The Nemoidians dont speak like Bela Lugosi, Bela had a distinctive delivery, flowing and pausing at odd intervals, and I would recognize a mimic. Watch ep. one or two and try to hear Bela in the Nemoidians speech.
[Danny Glover] I’m gettin’ to old for this shit. [/Danny Glover]
Now if the Nims only talked like that!!! 
I think expecting evidence (particularly given your tenacity in making the claim) is not much at all.
I have not see Episode II. I will not comment on Watto’s appearance in that movie. However, the first accusations of “stereotypical Jew” were raised about Watto in Episode I. I have reviewed his scenes in that film (or, in my house, tape) twice since this thread began, trying to see what I might have missed.
My conclusion based on his actual syntax, pronunciation, phrasing, and body language is that he is no more “Jewish” than GW Bush (although he may have more integrity). Episode I is available in multiple formats and since the accusation was first delivered against that film, examples from that film will suffice.
Actually, as a fan and student of animation, I can tell you that Jar Jar’s walk cycle is close if not identical to that of Shaggy from the old “Scooby-Doo” series. It’s how animators tend to make tall, gangly characters walk.
But you’re ignoring away factual evidence in order to try to make a point. Try to find copies of Keaton’s The General and The Navigator, and you’ll note that there are sequences that are taken nearly shot for shot and re-enacted by Jar Jar in the battle against the droid army. Just as shots are lifted straight from Ben-Hur in the podrace scenes.
I can definitely hear them trying to get it, although I think they feel short. Watch the movie and listen particularly to the following lines:
“I will be happy to receive the ambassadors.” (Particularly the pronunciation on the last word)
“Again you come before us, Your Highness.”
“Is that legal?”
“I don’t know! But we must move quickly to disrupt all communications down there!”
I don’t think I’ve been particularly “tenacious”.
Here is a link to a fan page with many sound clips of Watto. Listen and make up your own mind. I tried to find some audio files of Mel Welles in Little Shop of Horrors, but was unable to- all I could find was the musical version.
Watto sounds to me, not “Yiddish”, but the sort of generic “ethnic” accent you here in older movies- a little of this, a little of that.
Allow me to state again for those who missed it the first 300 times; all I have been saying is that those who see the stereotypes aren’t deluded. I don’t think George Lucas is a racist.
And, on preview, to pldennison. I don’t know if I’ve seen the two Keaton films you mention, I’ve mostly seen him in shorts and I’m not that good with the titles. I guess I haven’t, because I didn’t recognise anything.
I will watch episode two again listening for Bela in the Nemoidian’s speech. It will have to wait untill I get a chance, though. It may be easier to rent episode one on video, but there’s no way in hell I’m putting myself through that pile of shit again.
Ah, yes, no white person would ever sing that song in a movie. :rolleyes:
One of the Dopers has or had a link in their sig to a news site pointing out that the Cartoon Network will not show Speedy Gonzales cartoons in the US because of the perceived racism in those cartoons. The site then goes to state that one of the highest rated cartoons on the Latin American Cartoon Networks is the Speedy Gonzales Show. Again, a classic case where the very people who should be offended by a racist stereotype (if it really is one), instead find it to be wholesome entertainment. Perhaps they’ve not been properly “educated” enough.
Oh yeah, and let’s not forget the book Little Black Sambo, which is mistakenly thought to be a racist portrayal of Africans, when instead, its a charming story about a clever Indian.
Then there’s the folks who claim Mark Twain was a racist because of characters in Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer, even though the main African-American characters in both those books are portrayed in a postive light, and Tom Sawyer says he’d rather go to Hell than turn in Jim. Pretty bold for a man who was raised in the time of slavery and fought as a Confederate soldier. (Not to mention there’s the possibility that Twain modeled Huck Finn’s speaking patterns off a young African-American child that Twain had met.)
Well this has been one hell of an interesting debate, but it seems that we are going in circles here. I am far from the voice of reason here, but I’ll try and hash this out. With all the characters that Lucas has created, there are bound to be a few that could appear to smack of a stereotype, or at least contain a few characteristics that could be misinterpreted as such. In regards to Jar Jar, I will admit I thought he (or it) seemed a bit like some stereotypical southern slave. Obviously Lucas didn¡¦t intend that, and accusing him of being racist is ridiculous. At the same time however, JJ does seem to posses a few characteristics, which individually don¡¦t appear racist, but seem to raise some questions when you look at the character as a whole. I also think the amount of characteristics is in play here, everything from the way he talks, walks, and looks, is debatable and could be misinterpreted. I promised myself I wouldn’t stray from my point so let me get back on track here. The point that needs to be said here is that Monstro and Grendel are making an observation that many people have made. They are not accusing Lucas of racism, and that¡¦s the crux of the point that is being missed, they are making an observation that one of his characters seems a bit ‘islandish’. To label someone a racist by interpreting a character a different way is pretty close-minded IMHO. I didn¡¦t really notice any of the other characters as being stereotypical, but I could see how other people might, and that should be the fucking point.
Playing a stereotype in one movie does not mean you have to ALWAYS play a stereotype, gobear.
But if you don’t agree that Chris Tucker and Marlon Wayans’s roles can be likened to a modern-day Stepin Fetchitt, then I don’t think we’ll agree on much of anything else.
It would be ridiculous if I had said black people can’t do comedy. Fortunately, that’s not what I said.
(And I gave you some exceptions to the black sidekick rule just so you wouldn’t have to, BTW.)
My experience with movies is this: if you have two characters–a white guy and a black guy–chances are the black guy will be funnyman to the white guy’s straightman. The black guy will be the one you don’t take seriously while the white man will be. It’s a theme that happens too often to just be an accident.
My premise–albeit poorly worded–was that black people are dispropotionately represented in the comical sidekick role. This doesn’t mean whites are never represented as such, but if you were to survey the number of black actors out there, there’s a high probability that a large number of them have played a lot of comic-relief, “honey chile”, eye-rolling, whatchoo-talkin’-bout-Willis, screaming-at-the-top-of-your-lungs-when-the-house-blows-up types of parts. They are parts tailor-made for a black person, and because they are tailor-made, they rely on stereotypes.
Now Will Smith is a fine actor. He’s a very funny man for someone who isn’t a comedian. But he hasn’t been given a lot of serious roles. He has been given–as you say–“dignified” roles (although he’s a “screamer” too). But very few of them have been serious.
Can Matt Damon or Ben Affleck say the same? How about Tom Cruise? Edward Norton?
I think he’s been typecasted, just as a lot of black actors are. The reason for this is the same reason behind the scarcity of black dramas relative to black comedies. America loves to laugh at black people. And a sidekick role provides fertile ground for comic relief.
Are you going to tell me that there are no stereotypes in animation or SF?
No, of course not. That question is silly and wrong, and so is the one you’re asking of me.
So what’s lacking is a general understanding?
It’s generally understood that when a person says, “We be going down de street, HOME SLICE” they are “talking black”. But I don’t think there’s such an obvious stereotype of Jewish speech patterns.
For instance, back when I was in middle school, my father had a conference with my math teacher, a Jewish lady born and raised in Savannah, GA. After the meeting, my father kept referring to her as “the teacher from New York”, despite her very Southern–albeit Yiddish-inflected accent. How he had made an association between her voice and New York still puzzles me to this day.
Watto does not talk Jewish, even though I said his accent conjures up a “Russian or similar-type” accent. OK, I admit that I was wrong. However, I don’t think I’m totally wrong. His voice was Jewish, but it was definitely not “alien”. It was an “ethnic” voice. Some think Greek or Italian. Others think Arab or Jewish (funny, members of these groups are often mistaken for one or the other based on appearance.) But it’s not an “out of this world” voice. Placed in the context of the other things attributed to Watto (his personality, his occupation, his “looks”), I can understand why someone might feel he harkens back to an old-time stereotype. So okay, he doesn’t sound Yiddish. He doesn’t “talk with his hands”. But there are other things about him that do fit the stereotype. I don’t think it’s a major stretch of the imagination at all to compare him to Shylock.
If Watto did speak with a Yiddish inflection, would he then qualify as a stereotype? If yes, then that must mean language is the ultimate criterion for resembling a stereotype. But I don’t buy this argument at all. I think other things can be important–or just as important.
argh. All the previews and I still can’t get a perfect post.
I meant Watto’s voice wasn’t Jewish.
Well, he didn’t have speech and he didn’t have gestures, so what’s left? His greed? Are we then to conclude that every grasping character is a Jewish stereotype? Lacking the language and mannerisms, what is supposed to link Watto to a Jewish stereotype?
Shifting to the Neimodians, for a bit:
They did have a kind of breathy speech pattern that some folks “heard” as Asian (although we still have the problem that the choice of three fairly distinct Asian cultures have been identified as their source).
What else do we have? If I were looking for a Japanese or Chinese stereotype, I would definitely want to see references to serious honor given to the ancestors and a definite fixation on “face.” The Neimodians are pure businessmen. When one of them messes up, there is no abject apology. When they fail, they do not commit ritual suicide. There is none of the (apparent) obsequiousness associated with most Eastern cultures in the movies of the 1930s-1950s. They are not as sly as Fu Manchu. And I certainly found nothing inscrutable in their actions. They were almost forthright in their attempt to subject the Naboo to their trade demands. (The inscrutable one was the outsider who was passing them orders backed by veiled threats.)
So for the Neimodians, we have a speech pattern that could be vaguely eastern, but we do not have the actions.
I do not say that someone could not perceive a stereotype in these characters; I do say that the stereotype appears to be imposed.
Exactly, Monstro. But of course people are gonna accuse us of being oversensitive for seeing this trend in Hollywood. It doesn’t matter that even Helen Keller would be able to pick up on it. Those who see the obvious are only trying to see what they want to see. And we can’t have people going around seeing the obvious, now can we?
<end of sarcasm-filled rant>
I love Eddie Murphy (even though his humor increasingly fails to reach my chuckle threshold). But let’s be real and stop pretending movie execs actually care about talent. They only care about appeal. Appeal = money. Money = success. Even Tom Cullen knows that, laws yes.
Movie producers scored with Murphy’s performances in the 80’s, and being the smart but uncreative businessmen that they are, they saw little financial disincentive for stopping production of variations on the black comedic “side-kick” theme. Which brings us to today’s incarnations. Some like Men In Black are good. Will Smith may not have been casted as a side-kick per se, but it is clear his role is predominantly if not wholly intended to generate laughs. And then there are the worst films of this subset of the action film genre: I submit exhibit A, What’s the Worse that Could Happen? , staring Martin Lawrence running down the street with a humongous afro wig on his head.
<shudder>
As for Star Wars, I, like many good hearted, minimally bigoted Americans thought Jar-Jar was Jamaican-esque, the Neimodians were Asian-esque, and Watto was Semitic-esque. And like some of the other posters, these character interpretations did not lead me to fall out of my chair and convulse with indignant rage for Global Opression at the Hand of the White Man. They are nonscientific observations that may not have a “rational” basis, but it is unreasonable to dismiss them as the products of hypersensitivity when many people reach the very same conclusion in the absence of colusion or motive. I could care less about Star Wars and George Fuckin’ Lucas, okay? When it comes to the whole damn series, some people act worse than Bible thumping lunatics who want to kill anyone that dares speak against The Inerrant Word.
Final thought on the matter: George Lucas is not God; he is subject to the same failings and short-comings as any human being. Admit this and move on with your lives, people. Don’t accuse others of being hypersensitive lest you be accused of being the same way about, of all things, a MOVIE!!!
I like Star Wars, BTW.
Tomndebb, most people who use stereotypes as a basis for understanding the world aren’t concerned with differences between Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, etc. The Archie Bunker types of the world, for example, see all Asians as “Japs” or “Gooks” or “Chinks”, depending on his slur preferences. Similarly, the George Jeffersons of the world don’t differentiate between Celtics, Anglo-Saxons, and folks of Germanic descent; to them, they are all “Whitey” and thus behave as “Whitey” behaves. No matter how distinct Asian cultures are, to the close-minded and ignorant (not to say Lucas is those things, mind you) they are all the same. So it’s a rather weak point to insist that a portrayal has to include definite cultural cues in order to be considered a true stereotypical image.
Something else strikes me as interesting. People keep pointing out that because Watto reminds people of so many different kinds of people that is “proof” he is a non-caricature of Jews. But, the way I see it, that is not necessarily so. Most if not all the Watto-like ethnicities that have been mentioned are intimately associated with the Mediterranean vicinity. That includes Jews, Arabs, Greeks, and Italians. It’s funny how these groups share many characteristics (speech patterns, inflections, gestures, appearance, “occupations”), but because one person believes Watto is reminescent of a Greek more than a Jew, that makes any claims to the latter ridiculous or more delusion-derived.
Very possibly true. However, when The Phantom Menace** was released, the cries of outrage were not that the Trade Federation was the re-creation of “the Yellow Peril.” They were specifically (and contradictorily) identified as Japanese, Chinese, Indian, or Italian. If their only similarity to (some of) those groups was a suggestion of speech patterns, yet they did not exhibit any of the other caricatures of those groups–apparent obsequiousness in speech, ancestor worship, a fixation of “face”, engaging in “white slavery,” inscrutability, etc.–then what stereotype were they fulfilling?
I am not claiming that no person could sit in the theatre at their first viewing of the movie and think to themselves, “Something about them reminds me of Group A.” In the case of those who perceived some Asian group, I would think that their pronunciation would have been the trigger.
What I am claiming is that they did not in any objective sense fulfill the roll of any of the stereotypes that were then placed upon them.
Similarly, if someone thought that they “heard” Watto as Jewish, for whatever reason. I cannot claim (and have not claimed) that nothing could trigger their response. My point is that when the character is analyzed, the only consistent association between that character and Jewish stereotypes is his greed. I am rather sure that even in the 1930s there were nasty, greedy characters in the movies who were not Jewish, so whatever impression one derived from that character, an objective analysis does not provide actual stereotypical features (unless one wants to claim that all greedy merchants have typically been Jewish in movie history).
As to your second point, Greeks and Italians do not, stereotypically, share gestures with Jews–the two Mediterranean groups are generally noted for their wild gesticulating while the Jews (who, in most movies focussing on large American cities, have been generally perceived to be the Ashkenazim of Russia, Poland, and Germany, have (stereotypically) more restrained movements, keeping their elbows to their sides, clasping their hands, etc. How many movies can you name in which the Jewish characters were from Israel or were Sephardic? Most Americans (and Lucas and his primary audience and their familiarity with stereotypes were certainly American), could not even explain what a Sephardic Jew was or identify a Ladino accent under any circumstances. To be recognizable to an American audience, the stereotypical Jewish character is pretty well limited to the Ashkenazim and Yiddish.
No, I think the whole series is one big rip on British people. Think about it: Grand Moff Tarkin - British Accent. Admirals Piett - British Accent. Admiral Ozzel - British Accent. Count Dooku - British Accent. The Emperor/Darth Sidious/Palpatine - British/British/British. And they all get their asses handed to them by some red-blooded American rebels who love democracy and freedom (Han Solo is SUCH a cowboy), with the help of an Irishman (Obi-Wan Kenobi as a young man). Why didn’t they just paint a giant Union Jack on the Death Star? Or play “God Save the Sith Lord” whenever Darth Vader walked in the room?
And if you believe that, I have a bridge I’d like to sell you…
So let me get this straight:
When a black guy plays the comic sidekick, it’s a problem because he is having to be “goofy” for laughs.
But when a white guy plays the comic sidekick, it’s a problem because his “goofy-ness” for laughs is taking the attention off the straight black guy?
Oh, please - you can’t have it both ways. This can only mean that casting a black man is automatically a problem!
Just so we can clear this up once and for all - can someone please list just what these Watto ethnicities are, and thus how you determine that he is a Jewish / Greek / Arab / Italian / Arthur Daley caricature?
Remember that we are pretty clear that the voice is indeterminate.
And we are also pretty clear that monstro and grendel72 are a pair of stereotypical morons.