Well, I might have said that, but I was probably really drunk at the time. Or maybe trying to be sarcastic. Or both.
Hey there! Way to fly off to the extremes.
Here’s the jarbaby translation of this post:
Uh oh. A religious scholar came in a veritably spanked me with facts, whereupon I discovered my views had no basis in reality, so I’ll depart with a broad generalization and extremist theory then claim the rest of you are idiots.
Ah…sounds more like a FirstYearStudent.
Dude, by your definition, the Pope is not a Christian–the Catholic church holds that evolution is “more than a theory” and in no way supports the idea that the earth is 6000 years oldnad was created in a week. Tip: if any working definition declare the Pope unchristian, there is a fallacy somewhere, or an error in your premises.
You seem to feel that anything ofther than militant biblical literacy is motivated by a desire to take the easy way out. This is your error, and this is exactly why we jumpted on you for jumping on Polycarp. Polycarp, like may thinking people, has spent his life formulating a coherant, consistient belief system that jibes with the teachings of his religion and his personal concience. He (and many others) has dedicated countless hours to thinking about his religion. To dismiss all that as cowardice is insulting.
Eternal Student, you know nothing of Polycarp and you clearly know nothing of Christianity. Poly is a good amn who has thought carefully about his beliefs and has done his best to live his life as a child of God. For you to treat that as contemptuously as you have speaks volumes more about you than it does him.
FTR, I’m a stone atheist who absolutely does not believe in anything beyond the material world, but I also know how to comport myself in public and to form a logical argument, two traits you clearly do not possess.
ETERNALSTUDENT –
Personally, I think that “and in good faith try to follow His example as you understand it” is also required, but then – unlike you – I don’t presume to tell people who is or is not a Christian. Nor do I declare that those who obviously are – attend church regularly, study Chriistian theology, try to live a good and Christian life – are really not Christian.
Not one of these statements is true of most Christianity. Not a single one. I do realize, however, that Christianity is much easier to attack if you define it to include these beliefs. But why don’t you just define it as “sacrificing small children in the name of Jesus”? Then you could denounce it as vociferously and no one would take issue with you, except to say “I do not think that means what you say it means.”
Well, me neither. But then you’re not talking about the majority of Christians.
Right! That’s us! The scaredy-cats that think for ourselves and follow the teachings of Christ as we understand them, within the framework of the brains and moral compass that God has seen fit to give us. To me, you’ve just gone through the looking-glass on this, to a land where up is down and good is bad: The Christians who unthinkingly follow the dictates of a 1800 year old book as told to them by some minister – without independent thought, without checking to see if what they are being told makes jibes with reality, without knowing a thing about the historical context or methods of interpretation – the people who use that book (a good book, as books go) as a weapon to attack those who are different from themselves, and who ignore the part about God being love to concentrate on the part about all non-believers going to hell – they are the GOOD Christians. While the Christians who study the Bible, meditate upon the word of God, bring to bear their own intelligence and their understanding of what a loving God would want, and what sometimes ambiguous words, translated through up to four languages might mean – they are the BAD Christians.
To repeat: They run under the “Christian umbrella” because they are Christians. They are people who believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, who believe in the resurrection, and who try to follow the teachings of God as they understand them. The one exhibiting “fear” here is you – fear of Christianity, which you have to distort so that you may condemn it. And you don’t know what motivates any of us – what we feel, what we fear, what we need. So don’t presume to declare that you do.
Er, well, again, no. It is not mainstream Christian belief that non-Christians are inevitably going to hell; again, even the Pope (hardly a man on the extreme woolly liberal edge of Christian thinking) has acknowledged that other religions can be of value. The most common doctrine with which I’m familiar is that Christians should concern themselves with their own salvation, and the state of anyone else’s soul is strictly between them and God. (Parables about motes and beams come in there somewhere, I think.)
This particular point has come up in several threads I’ve seen, and in most of them dlb has chimed in with a specific refutation. Again, the search function is your friend.
I’m prepared to concede, though, that this viewpoint may be more widespread than the Young Earth Creationist one. (But I don’t have any actual figures to confirm this.) Still, this is, I suppose, progress. Keep it up, and you might come up with a belief that mainstream Christians actually do share…
BBBBBZZZZTTT! I’m sorry, but that’s an incorrect answer. But we have some lovely parting gifts for you backstage.
Man, you really don’t know what you’re talking about, do you?
Some people like to cause trouble, and will sit and laugh while other, more honest members of a message board have a stroke over his/her unsconscionable insensitivity.
We have a name for these people.
I just think that this thread can be metaphorically likened to a bridge, and we reasonable Dopers can be likened to oh, say, billy goats. Which makes Eternal Student a…
I’m just sayin’, is all.
Let me also state that I do now regret attacking you so vociferously. I had assumed that (a) you actually had some idea of what you were attacking, and (b) you had thought about, and would be able to defend, what you said in that attack. It is clear to me now that neither is true.
I feel like a prizefighter who comes out swinging only to find a six-year-old in the ring. I misjudged you greatly, and I have ratcheted down my irritation in light of that realization.
As the punchline to the old joke about the Pope’s edicts on abortion says, “You no play-a da game, you no make-a da rules.”
I am not a Christian. I have never been a Christian. I will never be a Christian. I am not a fan of Christianity in any form. (Although I think Jesus was a pretty cool dude). I was raised a heathen and I’m supremely glad of it, as I am no fan of any religion or the very idea of religion.
However, I AM a fan of logic. I am a fan of reason. I am a fan of fairness and truth. ( And I am a fan of goodness, which makes me a fan of Polycarp’s, but that is entirely beside the point since I’m quite certain that he’s not nearly as annoyed with you as others are. He needs no defending. And I tend to think that he wouldn’t entirely approve of some of the things that have been said in his name, but that’s just a guess.)
In this matter, your reasoning and logic are weak at best. Your arrogance is mind-boggling, however. Some of the greatest minds the human race has ever seen have undertaken to understand and interpret the Bible and have been unable to agree on what it all means, and we are supposed to simply accept that * you* are the final arbiter of what Christianity teaches? I have to believe that you are trolling for reaction, because it is inconceivable to me that anyone could possibly be that arrogant.
If there is only one possible way to interpret what is a notoriously ambiguous, inconsistent and contradictory book, what on * earth * qualifies ** you ** as the one who decides what that is? I’m sincerely curious. Because I’m sure you understand by now that simply declaring “This is how it is” without a shred of backup for whatever declaration you are making doesn’t impress anybody around here. You declaring that “Christianity means for everyone what I say it means for everyone” is the very definition of a lead balloon, my friend. And then using that perfectly ludicrous declaration to bludgeon the integrity of polycarp, of all people… wow.
Oh, and by the way, in case you haven’t seen it yet, there is a big crack in the internal logic of your position: you are scolding others for deciding what Christianity really means while simultaneously deciding what Christianity really means. Okaaaaaay…
stoid
Oh, and one more thing… you realize you are arguing about a * label, * right? And the meaning of that label?
Because let’s say that the precise meaning of that * label * “Christian” is a fundamentalist Christian. Okay, sure.
We’ll call Polycarp… a “Christy”! Someone who seeks to live as Chris lived, is good, kind, charitable, and without judgment, and accepts that Jesus is his personal savior.
Argument over. You can keep the “Christian” label, and Polycarp can be the “Christy”. You win.
So now what’s your point?
stoid
But then ES asked this question:
Now you’re talking to me, ES: Born-Again Christian, and son of a minister. The answer is “NO”.
Let me suggest you back out of religion threads for a while, do a search on “Polycarp” in Google, and another search on “Polycarp” in SMDB/GD. Both searches will provide you loads of fascinating reading. You don’t even have to believe what you read, but you ought to think about it. And I mean the ‘no prejudices, open mind, intellectual study’ kind of thinking.
At least then you’ll have a working grasp of the fundamentals (pun intended) from which to base your arguements.
Oh, and lay off insulting people of towering integrity. You’ll never knock them over, and you’ll get hurt in the process of trying.
Hmmmm, I like this game, EternallyStupid. Can I play, too?
OK, let’s see. I am not heterosexual. I know little to nothing about heterosexuality (well, not really, but I like this game, so I’m fudging the rules). But I get to decide who is and who isn’t? Yowza!
OK, boys, line up to the left; girls, to the right - I’ll get andygirl in here to help me pick them out.
(Kind of like picking teams in elementary school, although I wonder who’ll be jumping around with their hand in the air yelling, “Pick me! Pick me!”)
Esprix
But…but…but our resident religious studies professor says differently. Are you a religious studies professor? If not, then who are you to argue with her? Maybe you and her should take this up.
PS - my condolences on being born-again
Aw, dang. I always get picked last.
Allow me to clarify, for you, ETERNALSTUDENT.
ELENFAIR posted this:
To which you query:
. . . Making the basic error (and again revealing your ignorance of the religion) that “participating in Christian fellowship” = “going to church.” Therefore you ask a question that does not accurately reflect the opinion you purport to challenge – and, gee, what a surprise it is to find you doing that. :rolleyes:
Anyway, to your question, TRANQUILIS answers “no,” because you cannot say someone is not a Christian just because they don’t attend church. To which you reply, totally illogically:
. . . Which she very clearly did not. Are your comprehensive skills as poor as they appear? In point of fact, ELENFAIR has not yet stopped by to answer your question, and since she hasn’t, you can’t very well predict her answer, now can you? (Though I think I can, and I imagine it will include expanding on the “Christian fellowship” != “going to church” point.)
Do we need to use smaller words and fewer concepts so you can follow along?
And my condolences on being an asshole.
Har-d-har-har. Ask her. Or don’t. Go do your homework, Eternal Student, and when you’re done, you might be in a position where I’ll take you seriously.
You know, I am the last fan of Christianity. Really can’t stand it as a belief system. Have serious fundamental problems with just about all of its core doctrines. But you know what? This statement makes you the lowest of the low. You are the most despicable, loathesome troll I’ve met in quite a while on this board. Your departure would be most appreciated. (IOW, don’t let the door hit you on the fuckin’ ass, fuckwad.)
Really, kittens should learn not to play with cats.
Esprix
I wanna play:
Hey, E.S.: I’m Jewish, not Christian. What rules do I have to follow to be “real” Jew? And do I get condolences for being Jewish too? (Didn’t we go through the "What is a “real” <religion> thing a few weeks back?)
Fenris