“Now that the war has started its time to put politics aside and support our country

Great Debates
#1

As heard on Internet message boards and morning talk radio across this nation.

In a word… Bullshit.

The troops, I will always support. I think there is almost unanimous agreement that they can’t be held responsible for the policy choices of the leadership. They should be lauded, and are, for placing themselves in harms way to do what they believe will protect innocent life.

But, I wish people would realize that my politics aren’t going to change or my passion alleviate because the war has started. If anything I’m all the more concerned now that Bush is betting the lives of our patriotic, well-intentioned citizens on his crackpot plan. The problem with Bush’s whole strategy in my eyes is that it’s contingent upon the terrorists eventually giving up. If we use massive force, hard line policies, and solid police work eventually they’ll give up… that’s the crux of the War on Terror. I guess someone forget to tell him about that little South East Asian country where we killed a few million Charlie’s and poisoned most of their trees and they still didn’t give up. It too 10 years and over 50,000 dead Americans to see that even if one last Viet Kong was standing he’d still spit in our eye and tell us to cram Democracy.

But, we’ve been fighting the War on Drugs unsuccessfully and expensively for sometime now and no one seems to mind, perhaps Terror will fit in nicely. The War on Poverty has fallen off the radar I think though. What I’d like to know is which President is going to spearhead the War on Fossil Fuel? Or the War on War? (I think we’ve hit a logical paradox)

But, for the sake of argument lets say the War on Terror goes more smoothly than those other Wars. Lets say Shrub hits a grand slam. He kills Saddam, finds Osama, and locks 10,000 terrorists away in some hellhole in Cuba. Do you really think that’s it, the war is over? I’ll bet you my family jewels whatever militant contingent remains, or comes of age after our strikes is going to try 9.11 or worse again, and even if they fail a few times they’ll keep going till they get the job done. Israel has been studying and practicing counter-terrorism for 50 years and they still can’t prevent the terrorists from attacking virtually at will. Their big plan right now is a fucking fence. Well that and bulldozing the homes of terrorists, suspected terrorists, and anyone who happens to live adjacent to them. Sharon’s hardline has been as unsuccessful as Bibi’s softballs. When will Israel see drastic, state altering, concessions need to be made? Israel is a colony in a post-colonial world, there is no getting around that.

I don’t want to get off on an Israel/ Palestine tangent, but whenever I say something akin to that statement. The response is always, “what about the Camp David agreement? Arafat turned down 90% of everything he was asking for.” My response was Israel never put Jerusalem on the table, knowing full well it would be a deal breaker for the PLO. Which is why, I advocate internationalizing Jerusalem. Making it an independent city-state run by an elected board of trustees with equal representation from the three faiths that lay claim to it. But, getting back on track…

The only solution to this conflict is diplomacy, compromise, accommodation, and tribunals in the International Court of Justice. Blame lies on both sides. America for 50 years of exploitative interventions in the Middle East, including installing the Shah in Iran, aiding and supporting Saddam in Iraq, and training and arming bin Laden in Afghanistan. And the terrorists for pursing heinous, inhumane acts of guerilla war when non-violent tactics have proven successful in the past, such as in India. The Europeans have to bare the sins of the father as well. Among other misdeeds, France ended the democratically elected, Islamic FIS government in Algeria with little cause, and supplied biological weapons equipment to Iraq in the guise of vaccination plants… just send them the fucking vaccines, they don’t need a whole plant. The UK has to take a lot of the responsibility for fucking up Palestine, and for cutting the people living in Iraq off from access to the Gulf, when they lopped Kuwait off of the Ottoman Empire and what would become Iraq to protect its monopoly on a Mid East trade route through the Suez Canal from a proposed German rail line ending, surprise surprise, in what would become Kuwait.

China could give a shit what Saddam or anyone else does so long as they get their oil at friendly prices, they’re not exactly a sparkling bastion of human rights themselves. Ditto for Russia and they have to be extra nice because they need the oil on credit. Basically any developed nation that stuck its hand in the Middle East pie and has been licking its fingers while the indigenous people starve needs to redress their actions and the actions of their predecessors in front of the world. The West carved up the near East, put a few corrupt monarchs into autocracies, gave them billions for their oil, took back billions for F-16s, BMWs, and Four Season’s penthouses, and watched as they starved, tortured, and murdered their own people and each other. But the oil must flow. It’s like a bad Frank Herbert novel.

Some of the nasty, covert shit America did can legitimately be attributed to the Cold War fight against communism. I’ll accept that as a valid argument. Communism was an authoritarian, repressive, and deficient governance and it was rapidly expanding. We had a duty to prevent its spread. However, a lot of our activity had to do with the fact that 65% of known oil reserves are buried under Middle Eastern sand. Anyone who thinks oil has nothing to do with it (thankfully they are few and far between) is either lying to themselves, ignorant, or a fool. We rallied the world around democracy and then used our CIA to oust democratically elected leaders like the Mossedeq in Iran and replace them with puppet dictators like the Shah who put the masses under his boot. We supported a monster like Saddam and his Baath hoodlums to kill commies for us and then left him in power and armed him to fight Khomeini and the revolutionaries that threw out the Shah out in Iran. The same revolutionaries rebelling against a tyrant whose reign of terror was made possible by the US in the first place. Also, daily, I hear Fox news and its ilk chanting “he gassed his own people!” Sure you’re outraged now, but what were you saying back then? Reagan and America fully supported Saddam during the gassings; the people killed were Kurdish villagers, collateral damage in an attack against the Khomeini’s regime, which was holding American hostages at the embassy. Besides no one gives a shit about the Kurds anyway, least of all the US. We certainly didn’t in Gulf War I when we promised to support them if they rose up against Saddam only to leave him in power and let him slaughter 10,000 of them after the cease-fire.

Round and round the cycle of intrigue goes. Kissinger is credited as having once said, “Oil is too important to trust to the Arabs.” and that pretty much sums up our game plan. There is no “grand scheme,” but there was a consistent ideology. We’re number 1 and we’ll stoop to just about anything it takes to stay that way. Now after 50 years of shitting on the Middle East to protect our grasp on oil we’re complaining about stepping in shit. Bush thinks he can bomb the problem away. These people already live in rubble, in perpetual war, what is one more atrocity going to do but give them more reason to plot our downfall. This it folks, America has decided to do its damndest to defeat, demoralize, and demolish 50 years worth of pissed off brown people. Not the plan I would have signed off on but here we are. Put on your helmets, and pray that our lovable Texan numskull and his cadre of bull-headed strategists get us through in one piece. As always, I am not holding my breath.

God bless the troops, and may Bush get a hankering for pretzels.

Further reading and references:

Kurds

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/2003/02/000294.html

http://kurdistan.org/Articles/saddam.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/kurds/

Camp David Peace Agreements

http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/camp-david-II-pal-isr-prim.html
http://www.merip.org/mero/mero072600.html

The Shah

http://www.decades.com/Timeline/n/93.htm

William Blum - “Killing Hope”

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm
http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/books/KillingHope.html
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/KillingHope_page.html

Saddam

http://www.nobloodforoil.us/How%20Saddam%20Happened.htm
http://www.ddh.nl/pipermail/wereldcrisis/2002-October/003148.html
http://www.midwestacademy.com/Comment/change.htm

Iran-Iraq War

http://www.counterpunch.org/boyle1214.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/83625.html
http://www.progress.org/2003/iraq12.htm
http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/ShalomIranIraq.html

Gulf War I

#2

Uh, politics in the USA has not been “put aside” for non-wars. Indeed, most actual properly-declared wars didn’t see any “putting aside” of politics.

#3

“Now that the war has started its time to put politics aside and support our country" = If you want to get in my face about ANWR, Corporate Fraud, Kyoto treaty, or any other political barb you have up your ass about the President, I say shut the fuck up, now is not the time. If you want to use this war to promulgate your agenda against said president, I say shut the fuck up, now is not the time. If yu want to start listing the hypocracies of the US and thier hegemoney, imperialism, arrogance, what have you, I say shut the fuck up now is not the time.

Of course, this is the US of A, and you can ignore me and say whatever you want. You can jump up and down and piss in your pants about how pissed off at this particualr war you may be. You have that right amigo. Doesn’t mean I want to hear it. Nor do I want to debate it.

Many people feel the president has made a decision for us, right or wrong. Set us on a path that we, as a nation, must see through to the end. As hard as it is, dissent and open opposition within the nation will just make it harder for us to get it over with.
You probably disagree with me and feel you must raise your voice at this particular time. I just reply, shut the fuck up, I don’t want to hear it.

…

No offense intended on this post at all. I was just putting out hypotheticals. And trying to put as plainly as I can on why I agree with that statement and why I will not get into a political debate about the war and the evils of our CnC.

If you feel you must get offended with this reply;

peace :wink:

#4

How is that? Please explain.

#5

Um, let’s hope not.

#6

Frankly, I think statements like that should simply be considered beyond the pale. They abuse the very things they claim to respect, all in a rather bland ploy to shut up the fuck people they don’t agree with. It’s not like THEY aren’t above playing politics: like that statement isn’t ITSELF a craven political ploy.

#7

You came to a funny forum to not debate.

Don’t worry, you didn’t offend me. “Shut the fuck up” isn’t the most couth of expressions, but to each his own.

Anyway, I think you’re wrong, and that there is no better time to address problems you have with your government (e.g. hegemony, imperialism, and arrogance as you mention) than when it’s actively engaged in them, but you’re entitled to your opinion. It’s a shame you don’t feel like debating tho…

#8

If you put the word “petty” in front of politics, I think that is the sense that many people mean. And this is, of course, very subjective. Go ahead and voice your views. Go ahead and protest if you must. But I’d call something like Rangle’s effort to reinstute the draft, as an end run around the war, “petty politics”. He knows there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that the draft will be reinstated.

#9

That’s right! Damn liberals should all shut up so the Republicans can pass controvertial legislation without anyone noticing.

#10

Saen said

There are a lot of folks who think Bush started this whole business precisely to divert attention away from ANWR, Corporate Fraud, Kyoto treaty and Enron and the stock market and…

Looks like he damn well succeeded in your case.

#11

Aw, c’mon, he was just Ham-ming around! (Gen. 9:22) :wink:

#12

Polycarp, how did you know that’s just what I was thinking? I just didn’t know the chapter & verse!

#13

The only thing I wish our troops is for to come home. I care not if they win or lose. They do not belong there, so they need to come home.

As for the country and government, I still want to be first in line to kick GW in the nuts.

Apathy, violence, and compassion: I will protest with my vote.

#14

Protests and dissent about the war will not end it any sooner. It will just divide many people at home. I am not saying you should change your opinions about the war or anything. I just feel every American should support our troops, and their leader, in times such as these. Hate him all you want, but it is he that is pretty much in control of our safety and their lives.

When the “war” is over, if you must, burn his effigies on his front steps for all I care. I just think that it is inapporopriate to try to undermine something our entire nation is fighting for in such a circumstance. YMMV of course. :smiley:

cainxinth

Oh i’ll debate, just not this. I’m addicted to getting my ingorance challenged.

Thank you, as are you, I am just saying that this opinion I wouldn’t want to get into right now. I have debated this, almost exclusively, for months. To me that was the time, and I can pick up after it’s settled a bit.

Just in case you want to know why I will tell you. so that you will not jump to partisan conclusions like ahem a few others have already done.
I have supported this war for better or for worse. I felt, and feel, that this is something we had to do. I never thaught it would be easy, and I always figured I was a bit optimistic on the situation. But right now people are dying. And whether anyone of us thinks it or not, they are dying for you and me. Some are scared, others excited, but each know that the next instant could be their last. I can be safe in my home and pass the time debating with everyone about the semantics and niceties of what they are going through. But don’t think it’s worthy of them. I don’t think they care, at this point, what a bunch of dopers have to say about each other while they are doing what they are doing.

And I, perhaps childishly, feel a somewhat responsible when is see things like this . Not that anything I did put them there, but I support them being there and in a sense, going through what they are. I don’t regret it, I am not happy about it, and I don’t want to debate it.

#15

Abraham Lincoln (Republican) saw nothing wrong with criticizing the Mexican war…

#16

Maybe, maybe not, but I doubt it will make any longer either.

I don’t think my blind obedience or silence will save anyone’s life. I also think the best way to support our troops is to demand their safe and immediate return home.

#17

I support my country even when we aren’t at war.

Is there a wrong time?

#18

Support for your country is only as “right” as your country is. If your country is wrong, then supporting it is wrong. Loyalty has to be earned not demanded.

#19

"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right."
– Carl Schurz (Civil War general, 1829-1906)

'nuff said.

#20

I didn’t mean to imply that I support all of the decisions of her leaders.