Bernie says that his support for a Nordic style system makes him a socialist. The PM of Denmark disagrees, and says that Bernie fundamentally misunderestands the Nordic model:
People are very sloppy in how they use the terms, but in theory, someone who is a capitalist (as the majority of Americans are) should draw the line right between Social Democrats who want a capitalist system with a stronger social safety net and Democratic Socialists, who want to achieve socialism through democratic means.
Of course, this is assuming everyone is using these terms remotely consistently, which they are not. For example, Bernie. Is he really a “Democratic Socialist” in the sense of a person who believes that the means of production should be publically owned, and that we should get there through Democratic means of reform? If so, I oppose that. But his actions and words don’t actually support that idea; he seems much more like a Social Democrat, who wants a capitalist system with a greatly expanded safety net (see: Norway and Denmark).
Reddit/Europe commenters reports that Vox did not got it right ten year ago:
Vox really went out of their way to create a direct connection between our PM’s comments and Bernie Sanders’ political message. That is misleading. You should probably watch the whole talk.
Around 6:30, he says specifically that he is not getting involved in the presidential debate:
… Denmark entered the presidential race. But this is not why I am here. I have absolutely no wish to interfere with the presidential debate in the US.
Around 8:07 after talking about how relatively close all the political parties in Denmark are and that he is from a centre-right party, he addresses the perception in the US of Denmark as a socialist country as a general observation that has nothing to do with Sanders or any campaign:
I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore, I would like to make one thing clear: Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy. The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish.
We all know how bad Americans are at using correct political terms. In the US, economic liberalism is either republicanism or conservativsm. In the US, economic social liberalism (Democrats, Obama, etc.) is called either liberalism or, to antagonize, socialism. In particular, the way many people in the US use the word “socialism” is completely incorrect. Our PM can comment on that in general and should be able to do so without Vox putting words in his mouth.
…but then again, it’s Vox.
[abernumse]
Well Lars Løkke isn’t exactly unbiased. He’s the head of a newly elected right wing government that’s working very hard on removing some of the welfare and safety nets that we’ve had for so long in Denmark.
Many left wing parties in Denmark call themselves socialist. I mean, the previous government had members from a political party called Socialist People’s Party.
It’s in his best interest to make socialism and socialist ideas the taboo it is in America, and members of his party has repeatedly used the term socialism as a negative term to describe left wing policy that they disagreed with.
Okay. I have covered this before. Rarely do national level Politian’s endorse candidates for mayor. But if anyone bothered to look at Zohrans endorsements, he has actually racked up way WAY more than his predesesor did
Sanders, Warren, AOC, several other members of congress, etc. etc. etc. So, this is simply false.
Zohran has racked up an amazing number of big wig democrats.
None of this addresses this point:
What part of that do you dispute, and what evidence do you have that it is untrue?
The part that ignored that back then a new prime minister that was right of center and disliked what other democratic socialists did back then, that prime minister had an ax to grind.
I do think Bernie was right, and no, Bernie is not more in tune with the socialists, he is more in tune with what the prime minister was saying. In Other Words, like the commenter at Reddit said, just more of an effort to use the term socialism as a negative term to describe left wing policy that they disagreed with.
But not Schumer, Swalwell, Gillibrand, and many others in NY. You’re right about primaries, but this is not the primary - Democrats in office do routinely endorse Democratic candidates for mayor, especially in their own states.
We should absolutely expect the Democratic Senators from NY to endorse the Democratic candidate for mayor of NYC. It’s conspicuous and outrageous that they have not, and I hope they are primaried for it and lose their seats.
Did they endorse the prior Dem mayor?
It does not seem so.
It does not seem like they do so normally.
Wrong link there, Dr.D
thanks, fixed
Schumer did:
Your link was for the primary, not the general.
OK, cool, I agree - the PM of Denmark probably had an axe to grind when he made that comment. I never said otherwise.
It doesn’t mean he is incorrect. Denmark is not a socialist country; it is a capitalist country with a robust safety net. That model is generally what Social Democrats push for.
Since you linked Reddit, I’m happy to respond in kind. Here’s a post that’s somewhat supportive of Sanders on r/Socialism with 120 upvotes; the top comment calls Sanders a “Liberal and Social Democrat” and blows the OP out of the water with 320 upvotes.
And finally getting to the main point, really.
The point is indeed that what many in the US (even many moderates too) do like to disparage the mayor candidate and Sanders as wacky “Socialists” when clearly they are not, and they do not look to make the US socialist, hence, the reality that no, a democratic socialist is not really a plain socialist.
I mean, isn’t that their own damn fault for using the term “Democratic Socialist”? A Democratic Socialist is someone who does have the end goal of socializing the means of production but wants to do it through democratic means. It’s not synonymous with the term Socialist, but it’s certainly a subtype of Socialism.
That’s precisely the difference between Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy.
I see two possibilities.
Either people like Sanders, Mamdani, and AOC are Social Democrats who want a Nordic model with an expanded safety net, and they incorrectly use the term “Democratic Socialism” because reclaiming the term makes you seem cool and edgy…
Or they are in fact Democratic Socialists who do believe in socializing the means of production but recognize that this is not remotely possible in the US today, so they are moderating their stance in the meantime.
In the former case, it sucks that they’re being unfairly branded as socialists, but they are the ones who chose to use the term to describe themselves.
On the other hand, in the latter case, calling them socialists is totally fair. Wanting to socialize the means of production is literally the definition of socialism.
Where your description of the situation is totally correct is when Social Democrats are painted as socialism. That’s a totally different economic system that’s entirely within the Capitalist framework, just with a robust safety net. Calling a Social Democrat a Socialist is exactly what you said: an attempt to smear someone with a term that doesn’t apply to them and has negative connotations in the US.
Again, since the cites are from 10 years ago, the answer is clear, no they are are not socialist as Vermont shows. ‘You will know them by their fruits’.
Off-Topic Sanders stuff hidden by Moderator
Huh? What does this even mean?
Bernie is Vermont’s representative to the Federal government, so if the claim is that clearly he would have implemented socialism by now if he wanted to, that’s quite silly.
That said, I do agree with you that I highly doubt that Bernie actually wants to socialize the means of production. I agree with the poster from r/Socialism who called Bernie a “Liberal and a Social Democrat”. That poster was speaking pejoratively, because they’re stupid enough to be an r/socialism poster; but their analysis of Bernie’s political position seems accurate.
Some of Bernie’s speeches from his much younger days imply that maybe he believes in public ownership of industry at one point; but he clearly no longer does.
I just can’t muster up much sympathy for Bernie’s (and Mamdani, and AOC) plight of being unfairly tarred as a Socialist when he brought that on himself by literally calling himself one.
Moderating:
Preemptive Moderating: Do not turn this thread into a Sanders debate, he has almost nothing to do with the topic. If you must debate Sanders yet again, start a new thread please.
How to Reply as a linked Topic
Click Reply, in the upper left corner of the reply window is the reply type button, looks like a curving arrow point to the right.
Choose Reply as linked topic and it starts a new thread. As an example, you can choose GD, IMHO or The Pit for it.
That is actually the best method.
This is not a normal election because there are two ostensible “Democrats” running as independents. It’s important for everyone to reaffirm the importance of respecting the primary results.