"O.J. Innocent" says BBC

Great Debates
41

BTW, “O-tay” is an expression associated with Buckwheat, a darling black character on the 50’s? show “Little Rascals.” It was about the misadventures of a bunch of little kids. Buckwheat wasn’t the brightest character on the show, and his usual lines were, “Okay, Spanky.” Eddie Murphy did a spoof on it and I think it was he who changed it to
“O-tay!” (said with a vacuous expression on his face.)

One poster thinks that term is racist because Buckwheat was black, as were most of the jurors. The original poster is claiming that the expression had nothing to do with Buckwheat’s race, but rather the fact that Buckwheat wasn’t the brightest star in the constellation…as were the jurors.

42

DKW It was claimed by Derleth that Brit posters had stated that Simpson was “declared innocent”. I was pointing out that only yourself and the misleading thread title (by a fellow American) had suggested that was the case. Just correcting a misunderstanding.

Equating a finding of ‘wrongful death’ with ‘murder’ is very misleading. Simpson was found innocent of the murder charge under the criminal law.

There is nothing confusing in the different decisions if one understands the standards of proof required in civil and criminal courts are not the same - actually, they’re not even close. A civil court requires ‘only’ that the case be proven “on the balance of probability” while a criminal court requires “proof beyond all reasonable doubt”. An eminently sensible distinction, IMHO.

No idea whether a civil case in California would examine the evidence and witnesses as thoroughly (exhaustive cross examination being vital) as would a criminal case, nor whether all the the evidence went before a jury (in the civil case).

43

“Innocent” ? OJ?

Criminally, see, he was “not guilty” as per the justice system, however, no one said he was “innocent”.

There is a distinction.

In Civil Court, by a preponderance of the evidence, he was “liable” for the deaths.

44

Just for the record…I do happen to be outraged at the 80 some convicted who have been released in the past couple of years. I also happen to be outraged that Klaus Von Bulow and that other rich guy in Texas got away with it just because they had enough money to suspend reasonable belief in a jury.

I’m also outraged about “driving while black” and the fact that our prisons are full to predomination of minorities, blacks mainly. And that 48% of all death row inmates are black.

If the African American community is happy that O.J. got off because he’s one of their own and they are sick and tired of seeing black people receive a heavier weight of American justice then I can’t blame them. I do however blame them as I do white America for the same attitudes that I mentioned in my earlier post. There is no excuse for ignoring the violence our society perpetrates against it’s most vulnerable citizens, it’s women and children.

Needs2know

45

:confused:

What!!!??? Are you nuts?!! If black people are sooooo friggin’ aware of the injustice of whites setting rich whites free, that is NO EXCUSE for the Simpson fiasco!!!

Duh! You despise us for doing it, then you MUST despise your own for doing it WHILE CLAIMING TO KNOW BETTER!!! Get it?

Go ahead and tell me that it was better to set a murderer free than to develop a better consciousness of potential race bias!!! Blacks are so goddammed “aware”, yet they fell into the same trap as dumb-ass whites that they love to criticize. If your goddammed black existence (which we don’t “get”) is so fuckin’ rewarding and makes you aware of the injustices, then how the fuck did the jury, so rich from their black experience and knowing better about racism, pull the same shit as whites?

See, what you constantly fail to understand is that all the mostly black jury did was make even more white people hold a bitter contempt for them AND reinforce a negative perception!

It was like a gift from destiny: “Here, black folks, show the world how your black experience and your superior understanding of how the injustice in the “system” works… be non-biased and convict OJ. Advance twenty years.”

Jesus! You would have advanced your people ten-fold!
(yeah, I know, they’re not “your people”)

Instead, you defend their dumb-asses!

People respect people, white or black, with some exceptions. But what I don’t tolerate is ignorant people who claim to know better because of their “black experience” and then act like the dumb-ass whites they criticize.

If you had any dignity as a community, OJ would be in jail. At the least, you knew better from your 'experience", yet there is a ton of criticism missing from the black community for the dumb-ass OJ jury.

People are sick and tired of fucking excuses and all we hear is one freakin’ excuse after another for the OJ jury.

They ain’t no better than whites who somehow missed out on that “black exprience”.

What friggin’ good is that black experience anyway?

EXCUSES!!! WE ARE TIRED OF THEM!!!

OJ Jury?? Dumb asses. PERIOD.

46

Wow.
(Are you ready for this lissener?) Now I’m offended by Philster’s comments.

47

To go back to an earlier point- If Fuhrman was everything we are saying he was (spawn of Satan and whatnot), then why take the 5th at all?

Why not just lie? Assuming that he had told a bunch of (alleged) lies already?

I am just not one of those people who believe that you can be struck by the honesty lightning bolt just because you’re on the stand in a court of law. Too much television- scumbag lies the whole time, then on the stand, it’s “oh, oh, …OK! I DID IT! I DID IT!”

48

Gee, let’s pussy foot around everything. I almost feel compelled to explain that I’m not a racist!

C’mon! Are you gonna tell me that we should be afraid to beat up the jury and the dumb asses who support them? Trust me, if someone is a friggin idiot, they are a friggin idiot and should be called one, whether they are black, white or whatever. An idiot is an idiot. OJ Jury = Idiots.

Complain about some white people being racially biased…go ahead…and in fact, why don’t you just friggin bitch and cry about it. But, through those wussy tears, don’t miss the picture:

PEOPLE (all people) are liable to be racially biased. This ain’t a feature of the white man. It’s a feature of people!!!

How someone could muster up the balls to complain about whites acquitting whites in the middle of an OJ discussion is beyond me!

For the love of god, stop clinging to every stupid acquital of a white for justification of OJ’s acquital! You (black people) gave up the right to be excused as misguided jurors because of your better-than-thou posturing that comes as a result of the black experience (your claim).

The OJ jury, and more importantly, the subsequent defense of the OJ jury by every goddam black person, clearly demonstrates that you are liable to be victims of the same friggin nonsense the white man is.

Don’t gather around your fuckin’ tables and take on a holier-than-thou attitude. You worst enemy is yourself.

I wish Martin Luther King was alive, because he would have drop-kicked half the black assholes out there into oblivion.

OJ-friendly blacks are an embarrasment. If no one else wants to say it, then I will gladly.

49

PunditLisa - Look, I’m getting really tired of all these rose-colored glasses accusations. I read and enjoy This Modern World, for crying out loud.

But anyway…yes, I know that Simpsons could not have won without his high-priced defense team. Yes, I know that the rich and famous sometimes have an edge in court (not always; note the Microsoft antitrust case). And yes, I’m quite aware that some courts not only permit minor inconsistencies, but outright incompetence. There’s a great example on the This Modern World website, BTW (http://www.well.com/user/tomorrow), under “Al Gore and the Death Penalty” in the archive.

However, Simpsons did have a crack defense team, one which would jump on every mistake the prosecution made, the prosecution damn well knew this, and they went ahead and tampered with evidence anyway. (If they thought they were actually going to get away with it, they were the ones with the damn glasses.) As much as I dislike what Simpson did, at least he was playing to win. Putting it simply, he was the big one that got away.

[Agh…to think that there are some people out there who don’t think I’m cynical enough. I need to get away from this board more… ;)]

50

DKW, I know your last post was bantor with PunditLisa, but could you explain to me what evidence was tampered with by the prosecution?

Was anyone charged with an offense?

Are you just claiming that the prosecution tampered with evidence based on the various claims of the defense?
That’s an enormous tid bit you threw in there. Can you explain the evidence tampering by the prosecution for the benefit of those who visit these boards?

Help us out…

51

Philster complained:

Well, no shit, Sherlock.

Let me 'splain what I found offensive, since you’re pretty clearly unable to step back from your own rhetoric.

Needs2know posted that "If the African American community is happy that O.J. got off because he’s one of their own and they are sick and tired of seeing black people receive a heavier weight of American justice then I can’t blame them. "

From that statement you seem to have assumed that:[ul][li]N2k supports and excuses the Simpson jury, and thatN2k must be black (because s/he is defending African American attitudes toward the case)[/ul]You thereupon posted a reply containing such gems of reasoned discourse as: “If your goddammed black existence (which we don’t “get”) is so fuckin’ rewarding and makes you aware of the injustices, then how the fuck did the jury, so rich from their black experience and knowing better about racism, pull the same shit as whites?” and: “Jesus! You would have advanced your people ten-fold!” [by convicting OJ] and the wonderfully persuasive: “What friggin’ good is that black experience anyway?”[/li]
I’m not some paladin of political correctness or outraged guardian of racial sensitivity. But I’ll tell you what pisses me off.

I’m pissed off at the DA’s office for playing into Cochran’s “racist conspiracy” strategy by not supporting Furman and the rest of the LAPD. I’m pissed off at the Simpson jury for ignoring the forensics and buying into the conspiracy bullshit. I’m pissed off at that jury for being too lazy to review the evidence for more than a few hours before rendering a verdict. I’m pissed off at the black community for throwing their support behind this “black” superstar who never seemed to realize he was black until it helped his defense.

And I’m pissed off at you Philster for pulling that same “us and them” pinheaded racist bullshit that you so facilely rage against in your self-serving little replies. Your idiotic assertion that “If you had any dignity as a community, OJ would be in jail.” was enough to make you look like a kneejerk redneck asshole. I don’t want to be painted with the same brush by association.

Listen, oh brave-defender-of-the-truth, the rest of us white guys don’t need another petulant little pissant for our spokesman, thank you very much. We have enough self-appointed watchdogs of “reverse discrimination” already.

52

I suppose to know how a black person might feel about economic, social, and judicial injustice you just might have to walk a mile in their shoes. And obviously you can’t. Somehow you think PEOPLE should be able to rise above the need for things like revenge or should we call it poetic justice. As far as I’m concerned our nation’s love affair with the death penalty doesn’t have a damned thing to do with justice, it’s all about revenge. But then if my daughter were raped and slaughtered by some disgusting excuse for a human I just might want him dead too. But then I’d rather do it myself with the top to a rusty sardine can than ask my government. And it’s a lot easier to seek revenge on “those people”, those black criminals. Because we all know that there are more black people in jail because blacks commit more crimes, right?

Why should black people feel the need to be sensitive to your perceptions? If I were a black guy the last thing I’d care about is what some white chick thought about me and my crappy attitude. After all it’s a predominately white society that gives me a chip on my shoulder in the first place. (It’s also by the way why it isn’t a far stretch for a bunch of black folks to think the white guys on the LAPD might have “rushed to judgement”. Sorry but white society made the bed now they have to lie in it. At least in this instance they do.)

My comment was that I think women should begin again to take a stand here, all women. Why should black women have a more tolerant attitude toward domestic violence than white women? There are numerous factors involved but it doesn’t make things any better for them. It may suck to be black at times in this country, but consistantly, throughout history, in almost every culture and race, women and children are the most used and abused of it’s citizens. I’d love to see this attitude change and only we can do that in our own country.

I personally think OJ killed the mother of his children and an unfortunate fellow that got in the way. Is it outrageous that he got off, yes. But there isn’t anything anyone can do about it now. What we can do however is work to change the tone of our society so that injustices like this do not occur again and especially for all the wrong reasons.

Needs2know

53

God, I can’t believe I’m wading into this:

** EJsGirl ** Why would Fuhrman take the 5th vs. simply lie? He would have been trying to avoid yet another perjury charge. It’s not the lightening bolts, it’s the felony perjury charges one would worry about. and, as MF found out, much to his dismay to think “gee, how would they ever PROVE I’d used the N word”, is not good strategy.

that’s it. I have NO desire to get into the rest of it. I just saw that one question dangling…

54

It was a victory for the black community in the deepest sense of the word. For years, whites have shamelessly used the justice system to their advantage. They have used their power, riches, and abused their racial heritage to get off the same treacherous crimes Mr. Simpson was accused of.

When the black community cried out the injustice. It was met with silence, we were pushed away, told to deal with it. It is just humorous to see the white man’s reaction when a black man uses his status to get off a heinous crime.

What we can learn from Mr. Simpson is two things:

  1. Power, prestige, and wealth is an overwhelming factor in determining the outcome of a trial.

  2. The jury system leans heavily toward the white man and is rediculously corrupt.

Do I feel OJ was guilty? Yes, I do, the evidence was quite clear that he committed the crime. Yet, as ghoulish as this may sound, he operated the system like other white men in this country.

With that fruit of knowledge, let’s continue.

In other words,

When hundreds upon hundreds of police and clan members were acquited after torching churches, hanging men, lynching couples, and the rest of the debauchery that happend in the south. When the evidence was overwhelming, their guilt was beyong a reasonable doubt, they were released as well.

I find you funny, I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way either. You act as if this has never happend before, as if whites haven’t been happily abusing this same system for centuries. When a black man finally does it, still after several years, the endless debate still reigns on.

In the mean time, I suggest you tell your fellow man not to carelessly handle evidence like rag dolls. We all know that the justice and police system both tie for the most corrupt and most excruciatingly inept.

Perhaps you should pick up the pieces and move on?
Mr. Marcus

55

xenophon41,

You’re right in you reacion to what I wrote. I wouldn’t expect anything else.

Yes, in writing, I made certain assumptions, but I couldn’t care less whether the audience was black, white, etc.

First, I’m not interested in the “us/them” concept. It’s the “us” concept. BUT, as a consequence of social differences that have been carved out for a long time before I ever got here, blacks and whites do have different experiences and are wrapped around issues in different ways because of the fact that they are black or white.

Sorry, but I don’t know your experiences, or what life history you have, but many folks on this board seem quite naive.

You seem to take the bait in responding and also miss a point that is critical in understanding just what the heck is going on.

It is incredibly destructive to mention that there is some degree of latitude that should be granted to the OJ jurors because they are sick and tired of seeing black people receive a heavier weight of justice than whites.

Blacks dominate the criminal justice system, death row, etc. I accept that, no one needs to cite any sources. It’s accepted as true.

Here is the leap that kills the African American community WHETHER IT IS TRUE OR NOT: “…if they are sick and tired of seeing black people receive a heavier weight of American justice then I can’t blame them…”

This is an attitude that keeps hurting the African American community AND maintains the Us/Them alignment.

Here is another: The saying, “Driving while Black”.

Here is another: Acquital of OJ.

Give it up. Whether your white, black, purple or orange. There just tends to be a tendency to make excuses, and while some might be based in fact, it is not going to help anyone’s cause. There are racist white people out there who absolutely love to watch the African American community rally around Al Sharpton, Johnny Cochrane, Mummia-Abdul Jamal, OJ, Farakan, Marion Barry…the list goes on.

Stop making excuses. It would be more constructive if the African American community somehow denounced the OJ acquital. I didn’t/don’t see that happening.

The Afican American community has no shortage of leaders to rally around, but their lacking quality leaders (they’re out there, but they are not supported as well as the cry baby leaders that reinforce the cry baby excuse makers).

MLK, Jr. was a gem, and he wouldn’t find the same level of support now that he had then, because there is this fervor to make excuses instead of having accountability. Again, this is not to say that there isn’t injustice, or life isn’t fair. Life isn’t fair, and it affects the African American community negatively in some ways, but it is not an excuse for behavior.

Screw reverse discrimination. I don’t care to worry about it and it was never a point in my previous posts.

I am pretty far from being a redneck, but I appreciate you dropping a racist line in there. Try to keep your anger from making you call them names. Should we create a thread on how the “rednecks”, as you call them, should be excused from their views based on their experiences? You know, living in the south, parents who taught 'em to be racist. No! No excuses! Ignorance is ignorance.

Sorry, but the OJ case just raised the pitch on all these issues. I’m more concerned with the way the African American community handles such issues. I’m interested in people, and I feel a certain group of people are practicing self destructive behaviors. The posting was angry, but not racist.

56

Hi Ebony…May I speak to you a moment? How shall I put this? What I think on some level happened here as with other cases of this nature, where a rich and prestigous person is accused of a terrible crime, people lose sight of the effects they have on a personal level. What outrages me about this crime and others like them is that we lose sight of that single, so precious life that was forfiet for a cause. I don’t think Nicole or Ron were interested in giving up their lives just to prove a point. They simply had no say so in the matter.

While I sympathize with the black communtiy and it’s disdain for the crimminal justice system, I also do not think this case has taught our society any kind of valuable lesson. If anything for many people it has polarized our country even more. Just because I personally seemed to have read more into the underlying attitudes surrounding this case doesn’t mean others have. I think I’m an exception to the rule. Tell me this…while you might find the outcome of this case ironic and even a big “nanny-nanny boo-boo” to the white community how do you personally feel about making a guy who would brutally murder the mother of his children a hero for judicial injustice? On a deeper more personal level wouldn’t it feel just a little better if it were easier to consider him innocent? Because after all the hype is over I can’t help but picture those two young people lying there in pools of their own blood. I can’t help but see those two darling children deprived of the mother who obviously loved them. I also can’t help but feel disgusted with all of us for using these people as examples for what is so terribly wrong with our society. What do you think?

Needs2know

57

You have:

  1. taken the bait
  2. reinforced everything I said in my previous posts
  3. missed the point

You seem to think I’m bitter over OJ getting off? Not so. I understand what happened there and in other cases where fame and fortune help get a ticket to freedom.

I’m pissed because it was a set back for African Americans. Period.

I’m white. Okay. But I don’t care too much about a black guy getting away with something.

Yes. I understand what went into the trial and the acquital. The mostly black jury set him free. I wasn’t too surprised. Disappointed, not surprised.

But the real disappointment was the African American community not denouncing what happened. Okay, rich white folks get off, but we don’t blindly agree with it because they are white. We scream that someone got away with murder!

You can perceive it as a “…victory for the black community…” but we’ll have to agree to disagree on this. I seriously suggest you raise your standards of victory.

Some want/wanted revenge? Oh sure, that won’t make an us/them alignment.

Maintaining these attitudes is destructive. That’s what you don’t seem to get. Only time will tell.

I see blacks suffering a long line of injustice for a long time to come, and it is getting to the point that they have no one to blame but themselves.

58

OK, I’ll try and climb off my own high-horse, if you’ll step down from yours, Philster.

I totally understand (and share) your frustration with the Simpson jury. Understanding the reasons behind the perception of many black Americans that the acquittal was some sort of victory against the system in no way means I support the verdict.

My comment regarding “rednecks” was a characterization of your language, and was not intended as a slur against you; my point was that your rhetoric completely destroyed your message. Your most recent post is much calmer and therefore your arguments are easier to judge on their own merits.

Here’s the thing that I think you’re missing: some of those attitudes that you cite as damaging to the African American community are in fact valid reactions to very real problems. “Driving while black” is a phrase used to describe the real effects of racial profiling; this is not a paranoid over-reaction of the black community.

Sure there are public figures who see racism in every corner and who make excuses for their own misdeeds based on their own skin color. (I live in Atlanta; our mayor is a perfect example of this.)

Whether the fears and perceptions of the OJ jury were accurate is one thing; you and I think it’s pretty clear that they weren’t. But the fact remains that those fears and perceptions are based on decades of documented, systematic oppression by the justice system. To make the OJ verdict a symbol of the way the African American community handles these issues does a disservice to the real problems of racism in this country, and at the same time creates excuses for the incompetence of the prosecution. After all, it wasn’t a “black attitude” that led the jury to acquit; it was poor prosecution, clever obfuscation from the defense and a willingness of the jury to believe that a historically abusive police force could’ve lied that did it.

I don’t agree with Ebony Despot’s statement that “…the justice and police system both tie for the most corrupt and most excruciatingly inept” but I also don’t think equally reactionary rhetoric on your part can help to change that belief.

And that’s all I have to say about that.

59

Okay. Off the high horses.

Quote from Xenophon:
Here’s the thing that I think you’re missing: some of those attitudes that you cite as damaging to the African American community are in fact valid reactions to very real problems. “Driving while black” is a phrase used to describe the real effects of racial profiling; this is not a paranoid over-reaction of the black community <End quote.

Okay. I know it’s real. It’s real. I knew that before you pointed it out.

Let’s just say we share the same frustrations. Where I grew up we had a similar saying: DWI…Driving While Italian.

I’m an Italian guy who grew up in Philly, and I’m expected to be racist, or a homo-phobe, etc. I’m not. But when people are ignorant, calling them ignorant is best. We can be white and call rednecks ignorant. Blacks can be black and call their dumb-ass peers ignorant too. Far too often, the African American community blindly defends ignorant blacks, because…well, because they are black. This is in no way destructive to me. It’s destructive to THEM, and ultimately, all of us. White racists love that shit.

I guess this is what I’m passionate about: If your black, or white, or whatever, don’t aling yourself with ignorant people and make excuses for them, nor should you seek excuse makers as leaders who put a racial twist to everything. There is a greater tendency for blacks to do this, and that just leaves them aligned with a collection of dopes. That doesn’t bode well for the African American community.

60

Perhaps I was a bit too hasty.

I am not attempting to berate or make it so that their lives are any less meaningful. My point is their lives aren’t wasted, we can and should learn something from this.

Like whom?

Mr. Phil, you’re more than welcome to take that stance.
Sincerely,

Mr. Marcus