That may be the dumbest argument I have ever seen. First of all, it is not “a break of 3.6% of their taxes” it is a reduction of the rate by that amount, and for high income earners that could be a reduction of > 10% on the taxes they pay. Second of all, the fact that this is a small number of people is an argument against extending the cuts, not for. Third of all, because of the concentration of wealth (which is getting more pronounced) that small number of tax payers reflects a huge portion of Federal revenue. And lastly, because of the nature or progressive tax brackets all taxpayers would receive a tax break under the bill passed by the House.
As much as it would please me to have Obama fuck the Reps in the face, those of us of the liberal persuasion ought to remember why he can’t do that.
The GOP doesn’t give a flying fuck about principles or the truth. They will say anything and make up anything to get their way.
Obama and the Dems actually want people to not suffer. We want the unemployment benefits extended and extend the tax cuts for the middle class and lower.
Given that the GOP will filibuster anything they aren’t 100% in agreement with, how do you get the tax cut and unemployment through Congress? Is another Reconciliation even an option? If not, I see no reason how we can get what we want without giving them what they want.
I just read somewhere that reconciliation was how the Bush tax cuts came to be by way of a slim Senate Republican majority in the first place, which was why they were not permanent. Maybe someone can explain to me why the Dems can’t co the same thing right now with their majority. (That is, retain them for lower incomes and let them expire for the better off). I don’t understand. Personally I’m beginning to think that all of the party fighting is theater and both parties really want to take us to the same place. Part of me thinks that the Dems were secretly relieved to lose the house. Now they will have an excuse for not making any meaningful changes.
Let’s put the shoe on another foot:
Given that the President will veto anything he isn’t 100% in agreement with, how does the GOP get the full tax cut extension through Congress? I see no reason how they can get what they want without giving us what we want.
One of these days, you might realize that an ad hominem attack is nothing more than an open admission that what originally said was correct.
I’m frankly amazed. How can the sitting president even come close to losing an argument when the other-side position is in favour of a tax cut to the rich, in a bad recession caused primarily by the scheming and greed of the rich?
It’s fucking ridiculous.
Well, being an invertebrate will do that to ya.
More than a few will suffer if the debt isn’t paid down, some restraints aren’t put on speculation, and we don’t get out of the economic hole that we are in. Can you afford to lose your pension when the managers start investing in bubble sectors again? Can you tolerate <1% gain on a CD while inflation outpaces it? Can we afford (again) to bail out irresponsible insurance and banking giants who then post record profits and give out record bonuses? I’m pretty sure the answer is ‘no’ to all of those for most people with ordinary jobs and incomes. In order to get there, some people will have to take a hit - even a larger hit than they’ve already taken. My question to the Obama email site was: Is your goal political expediency or is it the good of the nation? If the latter, then pre-emptive capitulation is not the appropriate methodology.
You’re a silly, stupid bitch Clothy. A silly, angry, stupid bitch.
We can’t possibly allow our fellow citizens to suffer needlessly. We just can’t. And we cannot trust that the Pubbies will turn rational at the last second, that kind of brinksmanship may be emotionally appealing, may even be good poker, but its bad politics. If it went south, the left wins a glorious propaganda victory at the cost of hurting the very people we are sworn to protect. It is immoral to take that risk.
That said, I like the optics. In the mind of the everyday American is that simple bargain: tax cuts for the rich, help for the unemployed. Republican, Democrat, Right, Left. Stark, spare and devoid of pesky nuances. And everybody knows who to thank, and who to blame.
We aren’t going to win this thing in a year, or in an election, maybe in a generation. Maybe. If you can’t handle that, if you can’t deal with losing, if you can’t cope with painful compromise, you are probably just as good sinking back into the cold comfort of apathy, because you won’t be much good to anybody else. To paraphrase the community organizer the Reb Hillel, help thy neighbor, everything else is commentary.
Oh, almost forgot the Pubbies! May all of the one thousand sexual diseases of the camel settle into their groins and fester therein, unto the seventh generation, amen.
I completely agree. The case for maintaining unemployment benefits is completely watertight. Dollar for dollar, these benefits provide the single most effective form of economic stimulus we have at our disposal. The money gets spent immediately, bolstering demand and thereby maintaining employment. It’s simple enough for a kindergartener to understand. Given this, why did Obama allow the GOP to use the threat of their revocation as a bargaining chip? He must have known that they wouldn’t have been able to make a strong case for opposing them. He must have known that public opinion would force them to cave. Why did he even consider giving them anything in return for their co-operation?
Hear ya, but that fight is going to be even tougher. We are playing Republican Poker on that shit, all our cards get dealt face up, they get seven, we get five, and they get to draw twice. The Republicans built the goddam thing, they built it precisely to their advantage, and they built in levels of blithering complexity. We need a couple battalions of Progressive MBA’s, we need atheists with the zeal of martyrs. We need people who went to school forever on the prospect of getting rich who have Seen The Light.
Ever had a good hound dog? With a tick burrowed in so deep you’re thinking the only way to get it out is a quarter-inch Black and Decker drill? Not only is the tick deep in the dog, the goddam tick built the dog!
Tough sledding, podnuh. Real tough.
Are you sure? Are you that sure? The case has gotten starker and starker, and not a blink so far. Are you that sure that the Pubbies will suddenly see the light, that sure they aren’t crazy enough to take a self-defeating, suicidal stand? Or worse, that they wouldn’t just blunder their way into a position they couldn’t retreat from? Wouldn’t be the first time someone bluffed their way into a fight they couldn’t win, and took a whole lot of folks down with them. (By coincidence, tomorrow is Dec. 7th…Supplies!)
Because, what you’re saying is, in a way, that the Pubbies always knew they were going to cave, never doubted it, but were just waiting for the right moment. If you’re right, great, but if you’re wrong, a whole fuck of a lot of people will suffer.
So. Are you sure? Is it safe?
If I were Obama (and I know this is easy for me to say), I’d take the risk and, if shit went bad, I’d just try to tough it out and spend every available second attacking the Republicans, either from my pulpit or via friendly press outfits. I don’t think it would be too difficult to pin the blame for everything on the Republicans. For two years now, they’ve been harping on about the deficit at every possible opportunity. They’ve wrung their little hands over it, shed tears over it, campaigned ferociously on it, and generally scaremongered about it in terms which would normally be reserved for an impending nuclear armageddon. Right now, Americans are either terrified of the deficit, or so sick of hearing about it that they could fucking puke blood. And now, finally, when an opportunity arises to actually do something about it, the Republicans baulk.
Because it would involve a minor tax increase.
On the top two income brackets.
Who everybody knows can easily afford it.
This is not a tenable position to hold, especially for a party purporting to represent the will of ‘The People’. And when ‘The People’ realised that their own taxes were getting jacked up, that the deficit would continue to balloon, and that their unemployment benefits would abruptly cease, all because the Republicans, who for years have used every available breath to preach woe about the oncoming economic apocalypse caused by the deficit, refuse to actually tackle it by raising taxes on their rich friends, they would vent their anger in their direction.
It seems to me that Obama had all the chips on this one. The Republicans had nothing. And yet he again allowed them to dictate the terms of the debate and bully him into a compromise.
Who knows? Maybe there are factors we haven’t considered. All I can say is that from my position Obama looks like he’s gonna seriously drop the ball on this one, and if it had been me, I would have said “Fine. Filibuster. Hit the mattresses. We’ll see what your base thinks of your principles once their taxes go up. We’ll see how the unemployed feel when they realise that they can’t pay the rent because you took their benefits away.”.
People would definitely get hurt. I’d rather that than spend the next two years being a de facto puppet for an intransigent and extremist Republican congress.
Dear dipshit -
One of these days you might realize that disagreeing with your stupid ass is one of the most definite ways for those stuck with reading your drivel to know we are correct.
-Joe
Says you. People have different opinions on this issue, ya know. You act (in this and later posts) as if the Republicans intend to hurt the country, but they don’t–they very simply have a different idea than you about what is better for the country.
Gods, lefties will turn on anyone! 
I guess it never occurred to some of you ('luci excepted…for once I’m in whole hearted agreement with him, something that will probably give him pause and make him rethink his stance on this) that Obama is doing this because if he doesn’t do it now he’ll have even less control of possible outcomes after January? That if he doesn’t compromise on this he won’t get concessions from the Republicans on any of the stuff he wants (such as the extension of unemployment bennies…something I’m guessing most Pubs would be against, especially given the price tag)? That, just maybe, he knows what he’s doing, and understands that simply bashing the Pubs over the head and telling them to fuck off might not be the best path to getting anything at all done? The current levels of hostility between Pubs and Dems is incredible. Right now the Pubs are setting things up to block every single thing Obama and the Dems do. That will completely stalemate the government…no one will get anything done if the Pubs do this.
I know that a lot of your lefty types just want to tell the Pubs to go for a leap, to have the satisfaction of having Obama tell them that there will be no compromise evah and to fuck off and die, but political reality in the US dictates that if he does this and after the righteous rage and feel goodness wears off things will be even worse, and the rest of his presidency will be about sitting and spinning our collective wheels to no avail. Perhaps some of you are willing to do this just to feel good and right. Perhaps some of you think that such a path would make the Republicans look bad in the eyes of the public. Possibly, however, you are letting your fervor blind you to the real political realities inherent in our system. OUR system…not the system you wish we had, or the one our European brethren and sistren ‘enjoy’, but the real world system as it ‘works’ in the US today.
Obama needs to be more like Clinton and less like what some of you folks wish he was. He needs to steal the Pubs thunder, to put them off balance by compromising through taking some of their ideas and repackaging them as his own…and in the process, shutting them up and sneaking through some of the stuff he does want to do under the guise of that compromise. Look at all Clinton accomplished for the gods sake! He didn’t do that by continuously butting heads with the Pubs…he did it by stealing their ideas and reworking them so that they became his own.
I think Obama has made the political calculations about what is and isn’t possible, and while he’s made it clear he doesn’t want to extend the tax cuts he’s still trying to find a balance. Personally, I think he’s right on this one, though personally I’d put the tax cut back to the way it was for everyone, not just the rich…and I’d also cut spending, including, hard as it will be, an extension for unemployment benefits. The political reality, however, is that those benefits WILL be extended or there will be a huge hue and cry from the public. And no all the tax cuts will be allowed to expire (only those for ‘the rich’). So…given those realities, the only thing to do is to figure out if a compromise is possible, and the pursue it…even if your own base turns on you. As lefties are wont to do with anyone who isn’t reality based and who isn’t faithful enough. It will serve you guys right (and the country badly) if your antics on this get Obama a single term and we get someone like Palin at the helm instead. :eek:
-XT
I think a lot of this comes from two things:
-
Thinking that Obama wanted and would fight for X, and that he’s not doing so now to the best of his ability. (Depending on what X is, it may or may not be justified.)
-
The belief (not sure about its validity) that G.W. Bush got most/all of what he wanted with little or no compromise with Democrats, and that therefore Obama should have been able to do the same.
No, I just assumed you succumbed to the clarity of my intelligence and the power of my personal magnetism. Self esteem has never been an issue for me.
He’s not ever going to get any concessions; he hasn’t got any concessions in two years. The Democratic Congress is not ever going to get any concessions; they haven’t got any concessions in the last two years. The Republicans know that they don’t have to give concessions because Obama and the Democratic Congress will cave in.
I for one am sick and fucking tired of it, and I can only hope that someday Democrats will elect people to represent them whose balls have descended. If Obama expects me to vote for him in 2012, he’d better start earning that vote.