Obama March 18th, 2008 Speech

Great Debates
141

Obviously it was a remarkable speech in terms of content.

But as someone who’s been drinking the Obama kool-aid for some time now, I think the damage has been done. The wedge has been driven. He’s now the black candidate.

(NPR is playing Rev. Wright screaming “God Damn America” at this very moment.)

The Clintons will cleverly exploit this in coming weeks. BO will increasingly be seen as too radical or too scary for the swing voters that really matter, fear being more powerful than hope. Somehow Hillary will be nominated.

I will be very happy if I’m wrong.

142

[QUOTE=Key Lime Guy]
Obviously it was a remarkable speech in terms of content.

But as someone who’s been drinking the Obama kool-aid for some time now, I think the damage has been done. The wedge has been driven. He’s now the black candidate.

(NPR is playing Rev. Wright screaming “God Damn America” at this very moment.)

The Clintons will cleverly exploit this in coming weeks. BO will increasingly be seen as too radical or too scary for the swing voters that really matter, fear being more powerful than hope. Somehow Hillary will be nominated.

I will be very happy if I’m wrong.
[/QUOTE]
Oh I don’t know I’d necessarily agree with that…I don’t see anyway that Obama could be consideed radical or scary, it’s interesting how human perception works though. I see this helping, you see it not helping. It’s going to be an interesting couple weeks that’s for sure. But if Obama’s numbers take a dive, I’ll be very surprised.

143

Does anybody think Clinton and McCain should weigh in on race in the country? Does anyone think either of them will deisagree with Obama?

144

[QUOTE=Phlosphr]
Does anybody think Clinton and McCain should weigh in on race in the country? Does anyone think either of them will deisagree with Obama?
[/QUOTE]
I expect Clinton to say that any discussion of inequality in this country should include gender issues… and she’d be right.

If she does that, and doesn’t look petty in the process, a lot of the wind could be sucked out of the sails. I don’t know that she can give a speech that generates change. She does that with legislation and compromise - from what I’ve seen.

145

finally! someone remembered the constitution.

since this story began i’ve been reminding those i speak to that we do have a right to free speech and religion. to me this has been a free speech thing as well as a racist thing.

from rev. wright’s point of view, what he grew up with, what he saw, he speaks. he has the right to do so. those who hear it have the right to agree or disagree; to avow or disavow.

he has the right to preach and practice the religion of his choice. we have the choice to follow or not. his views may not be the views of others who preach in the same church. they have the right to preach otherwise.

sen. obama has the right to disagree with rev. wright’s speech. as a man who wants to defend and uphold the constitution, he also has to uphold the rights of a person with whom he disagrees as well as with whom he agrees.

i thought his speech highlighted this. one reason why i really, really, really, would like sen. obama on the supreme court. that is where with the job for life, without having to deal with elections, he can make amazing changes in this country.

146

[QUOTE=Phlosphr]
Does anybody think Clinton and McCain should weigh in on race in the country? Does anyone think either of them will deisagree with Obama?
[/QUOTE]

Bill Clinton didn’t do badly on the subject. :slight_smile:

147

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
I would ask all parties in this thread carping about specific words and phrases either appearing or not appearing in the text–magellan01, MrMoto, Bobotheoptimist, athelas–to read the above section carefully.
[/QUOTE]

And I would ask you to read my initial post, where I stated right off the bat that Obama’s views and Wright’s seemed to be different.

That mere fact doesn’t give Obama a complete pass, of course, and ultimately he’ll have to answer to voters who might not understand black liberation theology as well as we do.

148

[QUOTE=Phlosphr]
How much are you paying attention to what’s going on around you? Seriously, you think that this country is the way it is because we let politicians like Obama into the government all the time? Heh, that’s a laugh. Politicians like him are let in very, very rarely. And when they are [course no one knows it at the time] when they are allowed in, big things happen. Whether you want them to or not. Obama’s speech was historic, something a political figure hasn’t attempted in decades - the folks over at Time mag agree.
[/QUOTE]

You know something? You’re presenting an opinion. You feel that Obama is drastically different than others who have pursued public office. I don’t. He isn’t the first one to run as an “outsider,” when in fact he’s quite the insider in many regards.

You don’t know much about me, but I can assure you I pay very close attention to what’s going on around me. Hell, I was even involved in another candidate’s campaign not completely dissimilar to Mr. Obama - you may have heard of him. His name’s Deval Patrick.

Oh, I don’t know. Another president took this issue on a while back. (And before Obama supporters take offense and think I’m having a go, I’m just making the point that other political leaders have had frank conversations about race as well. Not the first time this has happened - and he did a pretty good job.)

I don’t think it needed to be that extreme, because I don’t think he believes those things, anyway. But as he noted the flaws in Rev. Wright’s thoughts, and his grandmother, I thought he might share a time where he was not perfect on an issue pertaining to race. I like to think I’m above the fray myself sometimes, as I didn’t grow up in this country completely, and I study and research issues of race - “I know better.” But I always start these talks by acknowledging how racism has shaped me too. I thought that would have been a nice touch, and I think most people would relate to that point.

149

[QUOTE=stolichnaya]
You know what you are, America? You’re like a big bear with claws and with fangs… big fuckin’ teeth on ya’. And racism is just like this little bunny, who’s just kinda cowering in the corner. You’re not hurting it. You’re just kinda gently batting the bunny around, you know what I mean? And the bunny’s scared, America! The bunny’s scared of you, shivering!
[/QUOTE]

Since no one else will . . .

<stands up, takes hat off, claps wildly>

150

[QUOTE=Anomalous Reading]
Is there any irony that a speech about unity, a speech about bringing people together… plays well. But it plays along partisan lines?
[/QUOTE]

That’s because Republicans understand that when Democrats talk about unity, they mean agreement about Democratic solutions. :wink:

151

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
That’s because Republicans understand that when Democrats talk about unity, they mean agreement about Democratic solutions. :wink:
[/QUOTE]

Uh-huh. And when Republicans talk about bipartisanship, they mean “Democrats do what we say”.

152

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
That’s because Republicans understand that when Democrats talk about unity, they mean agreement about Democratic solutions. :wink:
[/QUOTE]
Witty. And pithy.

Even so… I didn’t hear any policy proposals in that speech. Only that we, as a nation, are better served by advancing the cause of the nation instead of our individual causes.

It’s like many things, the rich can only get richer when people are buying their stuff and driving up the value. There’s a balancing point. A place that actually benefits all. If the needle moves too far either direction - it ceases to help. Balance.

Right now… we don’t have it.

153

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
That’s because Republicans understand that when Democrats talk about unity, they mean agreement about Democratic solutions. :wink:
[/QUOTE]

I agree. Ethics reform, intelligent use of the military, implementation of the 9/11 Commission suggestions, preventing nuclear proliferation, curbing climate change, and other efforts on which Obama has reached out to Republicans are all “Democratic solutions.” Frankly, I’m glad that the consersatives are disowning all of these as liberal policies–it means they will relegate themselves to minority status for the foreseeable future.

154

[QUOTE=Orbifold]
Meanwhile in the United States, the Republicans have still been in the White House for the last seven years turning everything they touch to shit. How’s the dollar doing? New Orleans? Afghanistan?

But one of the Democratic party’s candidate’s pastor said some uncomfortable things, so clearly we can’t trust them. Never mind what the Democratic candidate himself actually thinks…in fact, better not spare even a moment trying to determine that, because clearly as Obama’s pastor goes, so goes America.

Nope, better give the Republicans another four years to keep turning things into shit…at least their pastors won’t say anything naughty! (Just their rich televangelist supporters.) Whew, dodged a bullet there. Well, no, not an actual bullet, those are still flying all over the goddamn place in certain relevant countries, but THAT’S NOT THE POINT, Obama’s uppity pastor made white people uncomfortable, OOGA BOOGA.

Jesus fucking Christ. On a sane planet, this bullshit about hanging a candidate’s church around their neck would have gone out with John F. Kennedy.
[/QUOTE]

I think you try to seek protection under the umbrella of religion where none should be afforded. This is not a question of church doctrine, it is a question of Obama (who I like, by the way) demonstrating horrible judgement. If not as a human being (both not seeing Wright for who he really is in 20 years and excusing such language by Wright), then as a politician, not knowing that being aligned with Wright, as he was, would cause a problem for him. Oh wait, he kinda realized it last year and started to separate himself from Wright. So much for “a different kind of politics”.

And for the record. I am not a republican and never have, or would vote for Bush. But I understand your desire to change the subject to “oooohhh, the evil republicans”.

155

[QUOTE=stolichnaya]
And racism is just like this little bunny,
[/QUOTE]

Racism is the bunny, or racists or people of color?

156

[QUOTE=magellan01]
I think you try to seek protection under the umbrella of religion where none should be afforded. This is not a question of church doctrine, it is a question of Obama (who I like, by the way) demonstrating horrible judgement. If not as a human being (both not seeing Wright for who he really is in 20 years and excusing such language by Wright), then as a politician, not knowing that being aligned with Wright, as he was, would cause a problem for him. Oh wait, he kinda realized it last year and started to separate himself from Wright. So much for “a different kind of politics”.

And for the record. I am not a republican and never have, or would vote for Bush. But I understand your desire to change the subject to “oooohhh, the evil republicans”.
[/QUOTE]

Guilt-by-association is a fallacy, no matter how you try to force it by saying that it has something to do with the candidate’s judgment.

157

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
You know something? You’re presenting an opinion. You feel that Obama is drastically different than others who have pursued public office. I don’t. He isn’t the first one to run as an “outsider,” when in fact he’s quite the insider in many regards.

You don’t know much about me, but I can assure you I pay very close attention to what’s going on around me. Hell, I was even involved in another candidate’s campaign not completely dissimilar to Mr. Obama - you may have heard of him. His name’s Deval Patrick.

[/QUOTE]

You write what you want people to read, I read it and responded. Look we are posting to a message board, I’m not going to try and convince you green is yellow or red is blue, but if you did indeed work on Deval Patrick’s candidacy I’m wondering why you take such a stance on Obama. Did you ever meet Obama when you were on Patrick’s campaign? They are quite close.

If you don’t think Obama is different that’s Ok. I can accept that, and I can accept that we disagree.

158

[QUOTE=cricetus]
Guilt-by-association is a fallacy, no matter how you try to force it by saying that it has something to do with the candidate’s judgment.
[/QUOTE]

Oh. So if I run for office and claim that David Duke has been my self-chosen mentor for 20 years, you can make no fair judgement about me based on my association with him?

Whatever you say.

159

Point of interest: here is the NY Time’s editorial on the speech, which I think is quite good. Not as good as the speech itself, which was superb, but I agree with their take on it.

I don’t just want to hop on a “me, too” wagon about the speech, but there’s no flaw in conceding that others have said things I agree with, and done so more eloquently.

No one should be surprised that the first really strong possible choice for a president who is black would be facing these kinds of controversies. It actually allows me to feel more secure in my choice in supporting Obama that he can be so honest and forthright in addressing the controversy (which, in all honestly I thought was staggering in its idiocy. How many pastoral supporters of conservative candidates, especially Bush, have made comparable or worse Anti-America screeds? What about some harpy like Ann Coulter who has literally called half of all Americans traitors?)

Some people are really uncomfortable with the prospect of a black president. That is the only reason things like what his former pastor said are controversial. Some people are really afraid of the anger that festers in some black communities. Race riots are terrible things; this country has faced them before and may face them again. Obama is not afraid of being honest about racial divisions which are still hurting this country and impeding its progress, economically and socially. He understands them directly; he has experienced them first hand.

Obama clearly doesn’t agree with everything his pastor said or says, and most importantly he draws a very bright, clear line between religious conviction and politics. That for me is very refreshing indeed.

But even better is his vision for America, a vision in which we are honest about the country’s flaws and weaknesses, but not blind to its successes and potential for future greatness. That for me is the biggest reason why I am an Obama supporter.

160

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Oh. So if I run for office and claim that David Duke has been my self-chosen mentor for 20 years, you can make no fair judgement about me based on my association with him?

Whatever you say.
[/QUOTE]

I’d find it an interesting association if you otherwise didn’t come off as a racist moron, and possibly ask what you found inspiring about him, but that’s neither here nor there.

The fact is that Wright mostly just said true shit that makes people squirm. Everyone bitches about political correctness, but this is the real political correctness. Suggest that American foreign policy creates our enemies? Heaven fortend! No, they just hate freedom! Why, to even be FRIENDS with someone who’s read a little bit of recent history and connected the dots absolutely makes someone unqualified to lead. Etc.

That’s exactly what the author had in mind when he coined the phrase, “politically incorrect.”