How does your friend feel about our current CinC, who inappropriately exchanges salutes with military personnel? (Eisenhower, as POTUS, never did that; he knew that as POTUS he was a civilian and civilians do not salute soldiers.)
That’s great. Does that me he approves of Obama not placing his hand over his heart during the NA or just that he is willing to overlook it because he realizes other things are more important?
I was only addressing one small point not making an overall assessment of Obama’s worthiness. I’m voting for him too.
I have no idea. Not the subject of the conversation. I didn’t know not saluting was part of the accepted protocol. I’m thinking lots of average joes don’t know that. So Commander in Chief is a civilian title? Kind of surprising and a little confusing.
it’s a matter of the overall impression of respect or perhaps a lack of it. Impressions can change with a little more information and a little thought. My friend is smart enough to realize that regardless of that impression it is a minor issue in the big picture.
I looked around at the horse track this weekend during the anthem, just out of curiosity with a large crowd to observe. I’d say about 10% or less had a hand-or-hat-over-the-heart thing going- most of these seemed to be older men (veterans, maybe?). Nearly everyone was facing the flag respectfully and silently.
I realize that I was probably disrespecting the flag because of this anecdotal research. In general, I rarely put my hand over my heart, for me that is associated with the pledge. If I am wearing a hat, I will remove it and place it generally in the heart area.
And yet, we have all kinds of people reporting that they are unfamiliar with this bit of code; we have presidents who have routinely violated portions of this code–even presidents who served in the military.
I always pull in my flag when it is getting dark or rains, but those portions of the code are nearly always ignored by the majority of folks–even the ones who are willing to scream and holler that Obama is “not patriotic” enough. (Just after thew WTC/Pentagon attacks, when a number of posters were turning patriotism into a pep rally, the issue of flag etiquette was raised and a number of the “flag wavers” disparaged the Code, saying that their right to show their patriotism however they wished trumped the actual rules of courtesy outlined by Congress.)
How many people raised the flag to half staff until noon, then raised it to the peak, yesterday? (Did you? 
)
While most people try to show the flag respect in one way or another, I doubt that many people have memorized all eighteen sections (with numerous subsections and paragraphs) in the Code and missing one point or another should not be a litmus test for declaring a person to lack patriotic fervor.
Kind of essential to our constitutional system.
[Specious note and criticism]: There he goes again, playing soldier. You’d think an aide or some protocol wonk would have reined him in. I’m more offended by this than by anyone (including him) not doing the HOH thing for the anthem. This refers straight to constitutionality, not just manners.
I am always further amazed at the paucity of my pessimism re this man. I think he’s gone his length, but there are always fresh depths to plumb for George W.
[/specious note and criticism.]
IIRC, the exchange-of-salutes thing actually started with Reagan.
But, then, Reagan could get away with anything.
OKay,
Interesting but relevance? Does knowing official protocol change people’s perception of what they see as an expression of respect. HOH or flag pin doesn’t mean crap to me but if it mattered to someone else I’d have no objection to doing it. Again, not out of pandering or being a bit phony. IMO it can easily be done out of consideration of others feelings.
In fact Obama could have made a great point about the true nature of patriotism reflected in actions and how this admin has failed to demonstrate them, while putting on a flag pin.
Granted, and these threads have made me re-think my position on this. If so many people are unaware of it, I guess it is an easier mistake to make in good faith than I had imagined.
I don’t – but then I have a small flood-spot light that illuminates the front porch and flag and is on at night, and I have an all-weather flag.
Of course.
Now, I admit that I’m not average in this respect – the K of C Fourth Degree exists for public displays of patriotic allegiance. Our uniformed regalia Color Corps and Honor Guard teams do parades year-round. And we begin every major event (state meetings, etc) with an honor guard posting the colors, and retiring the colors at the end.
Still, I had thought that the basics, the hand over heart for the anthem, were drilled into everyone in grade school. But I was obviously mistaken.
The relevance is psychological. Whenever Bush exchanges salutes with a soldier he is sending a message to the public – and to himself – that “I am your war-leader!” That sort of idea tends to erode the essential distinction (on which many Americans seem to be none to clear) between the POTUS as CinC of the military, which he is, and as CinC of the nation, which he is not.
And since Senator Obama did not attend grade school in the U.S. . . .
Hawaii isn’t part of the U.S.? Ignorance fought!
I know Obama thinks there are 57-60 states or so, but I could’ve sworn…
Do we even know that he didn’t put his hand over his heart DURING the NA? Do we have more than just that picture of Hillary and Bill Richardson with HoH?
He didn’t start school in Hawaii until 5th grade. Not that it matters, since it wasn’t taught anyway. Did they even say the pledge of allegiance at school in the 70’s?
How so? How would not saluting change the message. Commander in chief sure sounds like a military title.
Out of genuine curiosity, what do you see the as significant ramifications of Commander in Chief as a civilian title. How does that, or how is it supposed to, help us as a nation?
I can see that the public needs to remember we have every right and even an obligation to question our elected officials and hold them accountable, rather than a military like attitude of obeying directives without question. There are limits even in the military yes?
By making it clear that (1) the military is entirely under the control of the civil government, and (2) the president’s authority of command in that regard extends only to military personnel, not to citizens in general.
Actually, I do agree with you on that - it depends entirely on the culture of the area, really. Some parts of the country drilled it like mad, and some didn’t. I really couldn’t say what a progressive private school in Hawaii did, although I do know that they required church attendance, so that could really go either way.
Ahhhhh That makes sense and I thank you. 
Ew. I shudder when Reagan’s name comes up–I disliked him that much. (but, sadly, you are right–he could and did get away with anything).
I went to school in the 70s (grammar school) and we said the pledge every day, HOH, facing the flag. My 3rd grade teacher, who would make the teacher in the book Matilda look like Mr Rogers, made us sing the national anthem, too. If you only mouthed the words or didn’t sing and she caught you, she made you sing it AGAIN, acapella, alone in front of the class. God, I hated her…
so, perhaps Obama “learned” it, perhaps not. I still say it’s irrelevant to his ability to lead.