I’d say the same for your “work until you drop” attitude.
Working, yeah, I’m right with you. “Working their butts off”, not so much. It shouldn’t take 80hr weeks to keep off “the public teat”. It doesn’t for me.
De Gustibus…
I’m not American, but what I’ve come to see as a core American value can be expressed by the phrase “Fuck You, I Got Mine!”
I don’t particularly see this as incompatible with a 30 hr week and 30 days of holiday, myself. Or are EU rates of unemployment and poverty* that* much worse than US ones?
Only if there’s actually a shortage of engineers.
Well, soup’s getting served, so that helps a segment of society. But who says an engineer can’t render community service doing what he does best, anyway? Why is the soup kitchen all you can think of when it comes to community service? I’m sure Habitat or the like can use good engineers, architects, hell, even lawyers, doing what they’re trained to do.
But they’re not, currently. And one function of government is supposedly to have your back when your immediate family/community fails you. Especially kids.
Why should it be the federal government’s responsibility to teach kids “science” and “math” in the first place? These kids have parents, right? Let them learn about math and science from them.
Let me address some of the concerns that have been voiced.
Businesses relying on summer students:
Why don’t they hire unemployed people instead of college students and help the economy? What’s wrong with students using their summer vacations to actually enjoy themselves? Beware of nonsensical assumptions. In any case, let them raise their pay until they are competitive or go out of business. If they offer valuable skills, students will work for free anyways just to pad their resumes. If not, there is no need to waste a college student time flipping burgers or working in telemarketing.
Semi-mandatory 50 or 100 hours of community service a year is a waste:
Most people would not resent it and waste the time doing nothing. Most would be proud of doing good things. It raises self-esteem, makes people more connected to their fellow citizens and gives them a stake in their country. I find it sad to read how many people seem to underestimate our youth. Plus, it’s a great way to meet new people outside your social circles and make friends or meet girls/boys they wouldn’t have otherwise. What’s not to like?
How will we pay for all this?:
With money. These social services create wealth, either by educating more people, improving life conditions (thus productivity and morale) or bettering the country’s infrastructure (thus creating more opportunities and making it easier for businesses to operate). it doesn’t matter how many billions it costs as long the money is well-invested and the programs well-administered. The difference between success and failure is largely due to proper management.
Interesting. From memory, American’s gave (privately, mind) something like $300 Billion dollars to charity last year. This of course doesn’t count what our government gave publically (and we all also paid for).
Out of curiosity, how much did South Africa (IIRC, that’s where you are from…if not, subsitute your own country there if you would) give privately to charities? Since I’m sure your own people have a greater love of man and all that and would never be like those filthy, grubbing American’s of course… (I won’t get into how, assuming I’m in the ball park with the $300 Billion figure, this is nearly equal to the GDP of many nations
For bonus, how much do those alturistic Europeans give privately to charities, either nation by nation or as a whole?
Not to get in the way of a good hearty rant towards those nasty American’s, mind…
Compared to the next closest, the UK, they also gave twice as much. US private citizens also gave more (GDP% wise) than the single highest government, Sweden.
Um…no it’s not. I’m doing a comparison, not accusing you (or your country) of doing the same thing as me (or my country). In fact, I’m flat out saying that your country (and fellow countrymen) do NOT do the same thing as us evil American’s who viciously give so much to charity (something like, IIRC, $900/year for every man, woman and child in the US).
If you want I’ll look up the definition for you…but I don’t really need to do that, do I?
Ok. So even though you used America as an example, you really believe the world’s core value is ‘Fuck you! I got mine!’, and that America is merely better than the rest of the world. (Again. )
No, it is not. Did you read the whole plan? This is about kids giving at least 50 hours a year of their time, starting from middle school. This is about kids having forced community service be part of their lives all the way from adolescence to adulthood.
You did notice that the vast majority of these jobs would be in an ‘eco-corps’, right? We’re not talking about a job helping a kindly old lady across the street or handing out soup to people who need it - we’re talking about millions of kids walking around with bags on their hips picking up trash along the street, Or picking weeds out of public green spaces, or other hot, dirty labor.
Yes, I’m sure that forcing kids to do this is just going to cause them to bubble over with a sense of community spirit and love for their fellow man.
Phwew! Get me a fan, I’m gonna faint! I’ve been supportively quoted by elucidator! And after only 226 posts. Is that a record?
'Luc, MrDibble, Cosmic Relief, Gozu, and some of the rest of you-- hold the fort. I have to go teach one of those worthless volunteer high school kids who really ought to be out working his ass off somewhere instead of becoming involved in a vast left wing conspiracy, the correct way to handle a peregrine falcon ‘on the fist’. Damn kid, he actually enjoys this. But he should be out earning billions so he can pay someone else to come here and hold that falcon for him…
How is not teaching kids they should volunteer “failing them”? That’s a moral value. and it’s up to the kids’ parents to either teach their kids that or not. It’s not the government’s job to make sure I’m a nice guy who helps the poor and loves mankind.
I was replying to a post that referenced America’s core values, so I used the same expression back. And no, I don’t think that’s the world’s core value. Just (one of) the West’s. Often called capitalism.
The fact that it was phrased as a comparison doesn’t disguise the “no, u” nature of the attempted rebutal. I said the US had selfishness as a core value, your response was to specifically reference my country and the europeans I’d previously mentioned. If all you wanted to do was dismiss the accusation, all you had to do was refer to charitable givings of the US and leave it at that. It’s in the comparison that the Tu lies. So yes, very much a tu quoque. You don’t have to agree with the original premise to make it so, only accuse the originator of hypocrisy, which is what you were going for. Pretending otherwise would be disingenuous.
So, despite the fact that the US gives more to charities (both in total and % of GDP) than any other country in the world , you still think that selfishness is core to America, but not those other countries?
We disagree. I think it’s very much the State’s role (as an arm of Society in general) to teach some societal mores.
I don’t think parents have absolute rights over their children, and I think Society’s needs and wants can trump those of parents.
See, for instance, the difference between the naming practices of US and Europe addressed in a recent thread.
I just happen to think civil service is one of those things where parents should be overuled, like vaccinations and teaching evolution.
So, when you say that American’s core values are “Fuck You, I Got Mine!” (this of course would be a strawman and painting with a broad brush on your part of course), and I point out that, no, American’s in fact DO give quite a bit to charity, it doesn’t make it a ‘logical fallacy’ for me to ask what your own countryman privately contribute…nor what the average European privately contributes. A tu quoque response to your assertion would have been ‘Well, you Africans say fuck you to the needy to! Why, you rat bastards wouldn’t piss on the backs of the poor if they were on fire!’…or something along those lines. What I’m essentially saying is ‘Well, no…our actions seem to contradict your two bit and uninformed assessment. How about your fellow countrymens actions? How about other countries?’
Now, I may be wrong in my assertion about the generosity of Americans and the lack in folks of some other nations at a personal level (I’m not, at least broadly speaking), but it’s NOT a tu quoque fallacy.
Now that we’ve (hopefully) cleared that up, onward!
“The West” is notjust America, and I don’t consider charitable giving the absolute measure of selfishness (or lack thereof) anyway. Money actually ranks very low down on my measures of what counts as important, BTW.
:eek: Thank the gods you don’t have any say in that. If you don’t see the slippery slope (hell, slippery vertical drop) in that I don’t know what to say except where would it stop exactly? One can always make the case that it’s a good idea to over rule parents on this or that…for the good of society of course!
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