Will Power My fucking ASS.
Oh to be so naive.
Merely willing won’t make it so. You can not WILL healthy lungs. You can not WILL stamina.
Funny, you keep addressing the overweight here, but completely ignoring MY threads in which I’ve addressed your above mentality quite clearly.
To YOU, where you=person with knowledge of how to correctly and efficiently do the following, is easy.
- Eat less
- Eat better
- Exercise
To the obese or overweight, who HAVE no such background and training, the following isn’t simple at all.
THINK for a moment willya??? Okay, you’re an obese adult, who grew up in a home where no type of knowledge of fitness, health and appropriate nutrition was ever used.
To THIS person the following equals
-
Eat less = Subsist on salads and tofu (as many others have said, VERY unsustainable for the long run.
-
Eat better = Better? How can you eat “better” (where better is conducive to weight loss) than salad and tofu???
-
Exercise = exercise? I’ve been going to hour long aerobics classes every day for a year, and NOTHING is changing. (and yes, our bodies DO “get used” to exercise, and aren’t “impressed” enough to let go of the extra fat).
Again, people like you, and people like me know HOW to make the above work, we know about the 40/40/20 (or in your case 40/30/30) rules, not only work, but taste good. WE know about weight lifting, we know about how to “up the ante” and how to tweak both our diets and our routines when we hit a plateau.
Teaching someone who’s never been exposed to this in their lives, how to do this, how to make it a lifestyle change, and how to adjust and change WITH it, is anything but the three simple rules you list.
Oh, and by the way, you’ll notice that what I say is the REAL solution has nothing to do with the obese being too “lazy” to execute it, only that many of them lack the knowledge to make it work. And that has nothing to do with their “making excuses” it’s an valid complaint.
And lastly, no matter HOW many times you keep hammering the “it’s as easy as eat less, exercise more” mantra home. IT. DOES…NOT. WORK. Period. You and your brethren have been saying this and saying this and saying this for decades. And Americans keep getting fatter.
So repeating this “fact” doesn’t work. Neither does exhibiting disdain, contempt and disgust for the obese. Though the OP was against this possible movement toward declaring obesity an illness, the POINT of this thread is that "Yes, something OTHER than useless repititions of the problem (americans are fatter…duuuh), and useless repetitions of a saying that doesn’t help, is needed.
And if that “something else” is that obese people are finally shown something and offered something that DOES work, what the hell does it matter how they got there, as long as they get healthy.
And yeah, yeah, I’ve read your 50 posts on how 'YOU’RE not going to pay for it" and answered that concern of yours several times too.
Like in taxes, NO ONE has a choice in where the premiums they pay go to in their chosen insurance company.
I shattered my leg last year, totally my fault too, I had lived in Alaska for 34 years and I KNOW how to walk on ice and snow. Plus, I should have been taking calcium, since I’m well over 30 and a woman and know that that is necessary.
So, you gonna begrudge my 17k repair of my leg because I “brought it on myself”? Oh, but wait, there’s more, I wasn’t insured, having worked for a brand new just starting out company. I have not been able to find permanent full time employement, and my wages barely get me by. So, the hospital will be ‘writing off’ my bill. So, guess what? Some of your premiums, (what 00000000.1 cent, as tdn said??), will go towards write-offs like me.
Some idiot child who couldn’t drive and wasn’t insured crashed into my car 2 years ago. I had uninsured motorist coverage, and guess what, MY insurance went up.
That’s LIFE, whether the person raising your premiums is doing so because of obesity, or clumsiness like mine. Sheesh, these are things in which we have NO choice, so your getting all up in arms because “I’M not going to “pay” for any fatties’ operations” is both silly and unrealistic.
Must be lonely out there in Flavor Country.
I think a big problem is portion sizes. Most people will clean their plate without regard to how much food is on it. Sometimes it’s really hard to stop eating when you’re halfway through. So with larger portion sizes and beverage sizes, it’s really easy to see how people eat a lot more calories and don’t even realize it.
This study did tests where some people had a normal bowl of soup and others unknowingly had a bottomless bowl (it refilled from below). The people eating from the bottomless bowls ate about 40% more soup than the other group. Although the other group were told they could have as much soup as they wanted, most did not ask for more. So it wasn’t that the bottomless group was 40% more hungry, it was that they were presented with more food and ate accordingly. They did other types of tests and found that people presented with bigger portions would eat 30-40% more food.
I can’t fault people for being presented with larger portions and eating the whole thing even when they know they shouldn’t–I can’t always stop myself. either. Sometimes I’ll throw half of my meal away before I start eating so I won’t be tempted to eat more than I know I should.
You can delude yourself into thinking that you are just “tellin’ it like it is,” but that’s not at all what I was talking about. I wasn’t talking about your stance on “personal responsibility,” I was talking about your transparent and obvious contempt for fat people. It’s all over your posts.
I don’t think you’ll ever see that, however. Mean people rarely do. They think that they are “tellin’ it like it is” or they think that they are merely “politically incorrect,” while the fact is, one can be both of those things and yet still not be mean. I have a friend who is mind-numblingly politically incorrect and he certainly has his issues, but he has no cruel streak towards fat people, and it shows in his attitude. He’s not mean, at least not in regards to fat people.
My mom used to try to convince me that some people behaved in a mean way because they were trying to “spur you on to improve yourself” or some such nonsense. But she got it wrong—she was trying to believe the best of people. The truth is, people rarely say gratuitously blunt or cruel things to others out of love and patience, only wanting what’s best for the other person. They say these mean things—or say “facts” in a blunt and needlessly heartless manner—because they enjoy doing it that way, or else they don’t give a damn about other peoples’ feelings. In other words, they’re mean.
You think generating bad karma doesn’t count as risky behavior?
yosemite, I apparently misunderstood your post. I apologize if I came across harshly.
I’m sorry, but I can’t accept this.
Nearly everything I know is self-taught. I started out reading a few of Arnold Schwarzenegger’s books (specifically his autobiography and his Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding). While these were a good start, I realized they were quite dated. So I subscribed to Joe Weider’s Muscle & Fitness magazine.
This information was not “ingrained” in me. I did not inherit it from my parents. What I did inherit is a rather lousy metabolism, and an almost insatiable appetite for meat and potatoes. When I go extended periods of time without working out, I get quite fat.
Like I said earlier, a quick search on Amazon.com reveals thousands of books on the subjects of nutrition and fitness, and there are probably dozens of magazines also. Most of these can be found at the library.
So, since the resources are available to whoever wants to learn, and I took advantage of them like anyone else can, I must reject your notion that I was born with an inate ability to understand fitness.
By the way, tdn, were you able to get my link to work? If not, let me know and I’ll be happy to quote the relevant parts for you.
Getting through this whole thread was quite an adventure. I refuse to search through 6 pages for direct quotes, so I will only address themes. All uses of the word “you” are, obviously, the general “you”, and not any specific poster.
One theme is the ineffectiveness of the dreaded “eat less, exercise more” mantra. The core of the problem is this mantra. It absolutely is the correct answer in that it is the only long-term solution. It is completely ineffectual because it requires a myriad difficult lifestyle changes that most people are unwilling to undertake for fear of losing what little joy they have in this life. But make no mistake – no matter how unpleasant, difficult, or downright overwhelming it appears to be, at its core, it is still the only correct answer.
Another issue I want to address is the vitriol overweight people face. I am a skinny person; always have been, and likely I always will be. I do look at obese people with contempt. It is, interestingly, the exact same contempt I face for being a smoker. The contempt is directed at weakness. And it is, in my opinion, justifiable contempt.
Several mentions have been made that overeating for the obese is an addiction. Then come the hems and haws about how an alcoholic can avoid booze, but you have to eat. That’s bullshit. You aren’t addicted to eating, you are addicted to comfort food. In other words, you are addicted to the feeling you get from sugary and fatty foods. If you truly are addicted to eating, as opposed to comfort foods, then you would over-eat foods you don’t even like. You could go on Fear Factor and eat everybody’s portion in the gross-out segment and ask for more. Don’t think for a moment an alcoholic won’t get drunk on cough syrup or mouthwash in a pinch. If you found yourself “in a pinch” for a comfort food fix, would you eat two pounds of raw tofu?
I mentioned above I’m a skinny person. I’ll tell you exactly how and why I always have been and always will be. I don’t enjoy eating. I find it to be a burdensome chore. Every single meal, for me, is akin to you eating a meal of only foods you dislike. If you limited yourself to only foods you dislike, I’d wager the pounds would come flying off. The downside is that you would never again get to experience the joy you get from comfort food. Well guess what? That’s exactly the fate that awaits recovering alcoholics. Gives you an appreciation for the struggle recovering addicts go through, eh? It’s hard as hell. Impossible on your own. But if over-eating is truly an addiction, then the only solution is abstinence from all comfort food for the rest of your life. Taken one day at a time, of course. You do not have to eat comfort foods to survive. You can survive quite well on army rations, hospital food, or airplane meals. Just don’t go down the sweets aisle in the grocery store, in much the same way recovering alcoholics avoid the beer and wine sections.
So that’s the answer. Easy as shepherd’s pie. You can gorge yourself on as much food as you please as often as you like, but you can’t eat any food you actually enjoy. I may adapt this strategy to try to quit smoking…I loathe menthols. That is, I may if I ever actually want to quit. As it is, I am content with being a smoker, much in the same way as some obese people are content to be obese. More power to them. But we are still justified in being disgusted by each other, as giving up is never worthy of praise.
No offense, Ellis Dee, but it sounds like you don’t really have any understanding of eating disorders. People who are “addicted to eating” (without getting into the complexity of what that actually means) will eat anything. If a person only has food in the house (s)he doesn’t like and feels a need to binge to make themselves feel better, they will eat whatever they have.
You use words like “contempt” and “disgust,” but I’m not sure how this feeling manifests itself in your case.
Are you mean to fat people but not smokers? Are you not mean to anyone, even though you privately feel “disgust” and “contempt”? Do you have a feeling of “lack of respect” for both smokers and fat people and anyone else who you deem to have “given up”? I’m really not sure what you’re getting at here.
There are a lot of things that are not “worthy of praise,” and I think that overeating and smoking are both in this category. But contempt and disgust are rather strong feelings to have about someone else’s personal failing that is (in essence) nobody else’s business.
For instance, I am no fan of smoking, but I can honestly say I don’t feel “contempt” and “disgust” for smokers as a whole. I may get fed up with inconsiderate smokers, I may tire of hearing some of their excuses (if they volunteer excuses—I certainly don’t expect that they explain themselves). But if they are minding their own business and behaving in a responsible manner (not smoking in non-smoking areas, not flicking their butts on the ground), then I would never treat them like crap. My estimation of their overall character would not be lowered in any drastic way. I would never give them a hard time for something that is none of my business. That’s all I expect in return. If my personal failings don’t affect anyone else, then I don’t think I deserve to be treated in a manner that exudes contempt or disgust. (Not that I am accusing you of doing that, mind. I’m assuming that you don’t.)
There’s too much digust and contempt in this world and too many mean, judgmental people who use feeble justifcations to feel entitled to treat others like crap. It’s not making anyone feel any better and it’s not helping anyone improve.
Mermaid, you might as well have a conversation with the fucking wall. Seriously, I think the tin foil hat is on WAYYYY too tight. He obviously does NOT live in the real world.
He lives in his own little Utopia where he thinks that people who are involved with “Risky behavior” should have a different premium than those who don’t when it comes to health care. I don’t mean risky as in “he’s a fireman and his job is dangerous.” or “ohh that’s the Crocodile Hunter and he might get killed.” I mean, he wants people who are fat or people who speed and might get in more wrecks in a different category on their health insurance because he actually thinks that if they were, he wouldn’t be paying for anyone else’s mistakes.
I’ll give you a minute to fully absorb this and laugh your ass off at that one.
Now that you’ve popped a lung I’ll let you know that he’s deadly serious about this. He wants to be able to be in a a group of “low risk” people who don’t invlolve themselves in things like being fat, having casual sex, playing sports, etc etc. Basically he’ll find an excuse for anything you show him to be something where people bring about (directly or indirectly) their own health issues. That would mean most people. Well, except him. Obviously, he’s the picture of health and keeps himself in a bubble.
In his little world, we can pick what we want to pay for and what we don’t want to pay for in health insurance. Well, I pick not to pay for people bringing children into the world. You know, it’s their CHOICE (a word he loves) to bring a child into the world so let them pay for their own child’s birth and care. I also choose not to pay for a man’s ED problems because as you grow older, your parts just slow down so maybe that’s nature’s way of saying not to have sex. I think I don’t want to pay for anymore anti-depressants or people’s therapy because they should just CHOOSE to be happy and get well. I guess everyone will get to pick what things they’ll allow their premiums to pay for and what things they want, so make your list.
Now, before I get jumped by parents, guys with boner problems, and people who are depressed please note this is SARCASM and I don’t reallly feel that way. I’m just being a smartass.
No offense taken. (My) Ignorance should be stamped out, not defended.
Is that really true? How would eating something unpleasant make them feel better? And what percentage of obese people would really fall into this category? My main point was to be careful about throwing around words like addiction. But then again, maybe the 12 step approach would be the best way to handle obesity, complete with sponsors one could call when feeling a need to binge.
I am not mean to anyone in the real world. I lived for a while in a two family house. The other unit was occupied by a couple I knew through work. She was overweight, he was obese. He was (accurately) described to me (privately) by our mutual boss as a bloated tick. He simply looked disgusting. The sight of him filled me with disgust and contempt. However, he was a nice, funny, fairly decent guy, and I enjoyed hanging out with him. Typically, we’d see each other more during smoke breaks at work than at the house.
His weight was almost none of my business. When it snowed, if he went out to shovel before I wanted to, his wife would call me and ask me to help him shovel before “he had a heart attack”. I was also asked by her a couple times to help him take out their garbage, because she was worried about him. I didn’t really begrudge her or him anything in that respect, though. Common decency dictates that I help out neighbors who need help, you know?
But let’s assume that dynamic didn’t exist, and his weight didn’t impact me at all. It still doesn’t change the fact that when I would see his rolling flab, I was disgusted. He was friggin’ gross as hell. (I saw him down in the laundy once in nothing but his tighty whities…god help me.) I have contempt for his evident disdain for his own body, and disgusted by the result of his disdain: his bloated body.
You might if the smoker’s putrid lungs were visible.
You really believe that other people smoking is none of your business? I’m surprised to hear you say that, as that is the position I held which you lambasted in a different thread.
No, I’m a pretty nice guy out in the real world. I do my best to keep my disgust internal. But it is a self destructive behavior with perceptible effects that disgusts me. A hacking smoker’s cough is just as gross as an extremely obese person’s appearance. Think of it that way, if it helps you to understand. Think of a really gross smoker’s cough. That grossness you feel when hearing a prolonged smoker’s cough is the exact same grossness I feel when looking at an extremely obese person.
I agree, and I think this post has gotten way off track for what I wanted to accomplish in this thread. I apologize to anyone I offended for my above comments. I was merely being honest and trying to convey the thought process of a judgemental skinny person. I’m the first to admit how disgusting a nasty smoker’s cough sounds, so please try not to rake me over the coals for my involuntary impressions of obese people I have known.
My main points were this:
Be thoughtful about the word addiction, and what it really means.
I’ve told you why one naturally skinny person is the way he is, and offered a simplistic method for mirroring that.
Take that for whatever it’s worth, which may well be zero.
Sounds good. Sounds like you aren’t mean.
Well, we all have our aesthetic reactions, I suppose.
It’s none of my business when it’s none of my business. A smoker getting special perks in the workplace while the rest do without can be considered the business of those who do without (not that I want to start that debate again). 
But if they don’t blow smoke in my face, don’t litter, and don’t get extra perks: none of my business.
I feel more sympathy and some level of appalled, but not so much disgust. Because yikes! Coughing out a lung—that’s gotta be uncomfortable. So, while I sort of understand, (because it is rather gross) I can’t completely understand. I don’t know if I feel the same deep level of disgust that you do. ::shrug::
I also understand that fat people aren’t considered pretty and I’m not saying that I think that they all are. But I’ve learned to have a different perspective on that (a perspective I feel fortunate to have), in that I have taken semesters and semesters and semesters of Life Drawing, where we drew many nude models, including really fat people. Old people, young people, skinny people, really, really fat people. After a while, you start to see the beauty in everyone. It’s a good experience, Life Drawing. I recommend it. It’s better to not feel that level of disgust, you know?
Hey, it’s okay. As long as you don’t treat people like shit, and don’t assume you’re “better” than them (it doesn’t sound like you do), then I don’t really care. If you don’t feel superior or entitled to shit on someone else’s feelings, then it’s okay. All I would like is for people not treat each other like shit (or otherwise exude disgust or contempt).
No, we do not want that debate started again.
Honestly, I’m not sure what my gut reactions are rooted in. They feel primal, and seem much stronger than should be warranted. I’ve actually been wondering about that for a few years…ever since I met that neighbor guy. His wife? Never even really noticed, and she was pretty heavy. But him? Yikes. It’s like his appearance was screaming at me. I’ve known one or two other morbidly obese people, and I had the same feelings as I did regarding him. I really have no explanation, but there appears to be (for me) a cutoff weight above which my brain goes haywire.
I’m not expecting it to work for everyone. I may be completely adverse to “psychologising” the problem, but that’s just me. Rationalisation works for me. I’m sure some people can be genuinely labeled “food addicts”. I’m also quite sure that a large percentage of the people you correctly label as such will simply give up, because they feel there’s no hope anyway, they’re going to lapse sooner or later. Which is why it makes more sense to me to help people focus on the physical aspect, let them get some results, THEN evaluate how they feel.
See where I’m coming from?
As for the “easy” part: it’s not so much that I find all these lifestyle changes easy: they’re not. It’s just that I feel I don’t have much of a choice. If I want to remain healthy, I must do this, I must live healthier, eat healthier, and exercise more. It’s not a carefree choice, it’s a very deliberate one.
Ellis Dee, here are some links. I personally (IMO) think that addiction fits fine for people who cannot stop overeating. It’s a behavior that is repeated, people with eating disorders are constanstly occupied with thoughts of food, and there is a biochemical reaction that occurs when one relieves their craving to binge or overeat.
And there are 12-step programs for overeaters. It’s called Overeaters Anonymous.
ad·dic·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-dkshn) n.
- Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance: a drug used in the treatment of heroin addiction.
**2. The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or or involved in something. **
http://www.cusu.cam.ac.uk/campaigns/eds/bingeeating.htm
Further, those people who don’t have eating disorders who are just overweight…if they decide to keep only food in the house that they don’t like, that will probably make them more susepctible to developing a dangerous disorder.
Lord Ashtar, I can’t even get into Web MD at all. Very strange. Can you post the relevant bits here, or mail the entire content to tneal@partners.org? Thanks.
yosemite, are you sure that people are making fun of you? Sure, if you actually see people pointing and laughing, then you have a case. But might you be imagining it?
I ask because in my low self-esteem days, I often thought that the whole world was making fun of me. If people were laughing anywhere near me, I assumed they were laughing at me. It didn’t occur to me that maybe one of them told a joke or something. This served a very important function in my life – it fed my negative perception of myself. It was only later that I realized that most people are too wrapped up in their own shit to even notice me. Forgivable, since I’m usually wrapped in my own shit as well.
And even if people are laughing at me, so what? They’re assholes.
(Yes, I know this contradicts my post on why I won’t join a gym.)
I didn’t really want to jump in to this thread late, as I rarely like doing it, but I wanted to put in a word here. My ex-wife was/is a member of OA (I should mention here that she gave me leave to mention it on this board; I should also point out that it is available for anyone with an eating disorder, not just overeaters). From what she told me, and from what I observed from her habits and her friends’ habits, I would strongly disagree with the following:
Firstly, my ex was of the opinion that anybody who was obese had an eating disorder. While I admit that this position is somewhat extreme, it seems to be fairly common among OA members. Certainly the position can be applied to some who are overweight, IMHO: if, as some posters in this thread have correctly noted, some individuals cannot control their eating habits without help, that can be considered a de facto eating disorder. I disagree that all those who are overweight have an eating disorder, but I think many who consider themselves “just overweight” may in fact have one.
Secondly, most OA members I have known would strongly disagree that “keep[ing] only food in the house that they don’t like” will make one more inclined to have an eating disorder. For one thing, what “causes” anyone to have an eating disorder–or for that matter, an alcohol, drug or other addictive problem–is largely unknown. It is suspected that the same brain chemistry factors that lead to depression, poor self-image, and self-destructive behaviors–all of which are common among those diagnosed with eating disorders–may be at root. Many overeaters (but certainly not all) have been helped with anti-depressant or similar drugs.
I must ask yosemite: Do you think it is “mean” to make the statement that “Anorexics must learn to eat healthily?” If not, why is it “mean” to make the statement that “Overweight persons must learn to eat healthily?” When my ex was eating just one piece of bread per day, she really, really believed that her diet was correct, almost extravagant. Had she not learned to eat healthily, she would have died. That’s not a statement to shock, that’s a statement of fact: even as it was she was hospitalized for twelve months. Sometimes saying the truth is “mean”–but for all concerned, we prefer that my ex remains alive. Maybe being obese will not lead to the health crisis my ex did, but it will catch up with the obese person, eventually. I understand why you feel the way you do, but, having seen the sharp end of my ex’s situation, I can’t feel the same way myself.
I should mention that although I mentioned OA, I personally don’t think it’s for everyone who has an eating disorder, and although I don’t understand a whole lot about OA, I think they have a more strict approach (accounting for what you eat), which is the opposite of what some people with eating disorders need to overcome their illness.
There is another approach that works and it doesn’t involve “depravation”, which is how I see not having available the foods you like. This is the road I took, and it’s working, vvveeerrrryyy slllllloooowwwwlllyyy. I may never be as thin as I’d like, but as long as I have no vital health issues, am strong mentally and physically, I don’t care (well, maybe I do a little).
So, although from my personal standpoint, I think it’s possible that someone might develop an eating disorder by not having the foods they enjoy in the house, it may very well work another way for a different type of psyche.
Which, again, proves that it’s all way more complex than we can work out at this moment in time.
Certainly not. The crux of OA is that they, like all 12-step groups, are a support group that neither sponsors nor endorses any one method of getting help. Some OA members we knew accounted for what they ate, some didn’t–my ex didn’t. To suggest that OA has an “approved” method of combatting eating disorders is somewhat to miss the point of the group itself.