If you want to get into “your position is too simplistic”, then let’s also attack some other simplifications. Such as it being hard to choke down that much milk (only a quart). I’ve seen kids chug a liter of chocolate or that Nestle strawberry-flavoured milk with no problem routinely (it’s a lot more difficult to do unflavoured milk), and hell in high school I used to know a kid who could do a whole gallon of milk at a sitting, and would too, along with an entire 16-oz bottle of Hersey’s syrup in it.
In addition, the kid in the example that started this might have been having Diet. I know it sounds odd, but some kids do drink Diet for the taste, not really caring about calories/no calories.
And my whole point anyways was addressing simplifications that are dangerous - you can’t say “Drink milk, not pop” because that isn’t true for many cases.
You know how I got fat? I went on birth control pills.(I was young, it wasnt because of sex.)
It made EVERYTHING bigger. So, for 6 months of not having coma-inducing cramps, I am now 30 pounds overweight. I’ve started to lose it, but its still a bitch. NOT because I’m lazya nd sit on my ass eating donuts. I’m very active, I go snowmobiling and swimming alot. So yeah.
Wrong. Several people have addressed your question, and quite thoroughly too. Your question is nothing more than a more snide way of saying “eat less, exercise more”. Which has been answered, not just in this thread, but in dozens of other “fat threads”.
No one disagrees with the simple math. Not even the obese, several of whom have also addressed your question. IF it were just the math, pointing overweight and obese people toward a calorie chart, or solving for X would fix the problem.
Do you reeaaaaally think that 63% of the people in this country (the number a dateline/48 hours expose’ used), DON’T know the math? And that if someone just comes along and says “hey, your portion sizes (and subsequent calories intake) is too big, THAT’S why you’re fat” that all of the obese people will go “OOOOHHH, crap, I knew something was wrong, hey Thanks dooood”???
No, it’s not, and no one is disagreeing that it is. But, and what this “new” proposal (or whatever it is) is aiming for, is to assist people, especially those SO obese that mere “eat less, exercise more” isn’t going to work, on first WHY they are eating so much (I don’t think very many people these days are questioning HOW).
This is not equivelant to “oh, it’s not your fault it’s the portion sizes” (and believe me, most of us do NOT support the idiotic attempts by some to sue Mickey D’s). What the fitness and health professionals are saying is “it’s not JUST the portion sizes, so let’s address the underlying reasons you overeat. Let’s educate you on how to “trick” a slow metabolism into regaining a normal function, let’s show you that exercise can be finetuned so as to help you gain muscle and lose fat WITHOUT you spending 9 hours a day in the gym (as many obese people fear), and let’s help heal your self esteem, so that you DO feel you deserve to be fit, good looking and healthy”.
If then, after professional assistance in both fitness and nutrition, the person wants to continue to say "it’s not my fault, it’s my genes (not including those for whom it IS a physical condition), then it is that ONE person’s problem. And it’s not very logical to attribute that sort of attitude to the entire population of obese people because someone has finally stood up and said "something must be done, let’s address this, let’s give it the attention it needs (and at 63% if 48 hours or who ever was right), that’s an epidemic.
And, by the way, the fast food industry has responded to the complaint about portion sizes and food types, they are offering far more options that are healthy and tasty. It’s just now gotten to the point where people who can make things happen, have taken notice, it’s not going to happen overnight you know.
Look at the ongoing battle to get people to stop drinking to excess or drink and drive, and to stop smoking. Both activities that are EVERY bit as unpleasant to look at and be near, and unhealthy as obesity.
That’s a pretty interesting point, but actually IMHO, the opposite would happen. If it’s declared an illness, then they’d no more be able to sue a company for contributing to their illness, than diabetics could sue Godiva chocolates, or an alcoholic could sue Jim Beam.
No, I’m not. You are making much more out of “disease” than is warranted. To illustrate: In terms of suffering and medical requirements, breast cancer and excema are very different, but they are both diseases. The breast cancer patient who takes offense by the fact that excema is labeled a disease even though it is not life-threatening, deserved a steel-toed shoe of good sense up their ass. Just because two things are labeled as a disease doesn’t mean comparisons to suffering are being made between them.
And again, just because something is brought about by “votional components” doesn’t disqualify it from being called a disease. Emphysema, skin cancer, periodontal disease, and a whole host of others are often the result of bad lifestyle choices. We don’t stop calling them diseases just because there are plenty of other diseases that are not the result of unhealthy behavior.
That would be a stupid comparision not because obesity is considered a disease, but because two different medical conditions are being compared to each other as if they are the same. The offense would be the same if excema was also blithely compared to cancer. I seriously doubt your hypothetical exchange would happen just because the medical community has defined obesity as a disease.
Innsanely huge restaurant portions are one of things that has changed w/in the past 20-odd years, and I’m quite sure it’s a major contributor to the problem. It isn’t just what’s being served, but how damned much of it. It’s intereresting to look at photos in old ads for eateries. Obviously they were shot to highlight the lusciousness and generosity of the food, but even so the portions are about half of what’s served now as a matter of course. I read somewhere that bagels are now a third to a half again bigger than they used to be. Even just ating a bagel for breakfast doesn’t mean what it used to, as all bagels are not equal.
It does make it hard to eat sensibly, especially if one is revolted by flagrantly wasting food. Some restaurants have jumped on the “health” bandwagon by offering Atkins, Weight Watchers, etc. meals but the portions are still way out of line. I do hope there will be sufficient consumer pressure to make it worth their while to provide reasonably sized portions at reasonable prices. Until then I’ll just go on as I have, more often than not just ordering an appetizer and side salad. It limits variety somewhat but at least it’s about the amount of food I actually want.
Apologies for the digression. Just mulling over everything that’s being writen here.
I don’t think a 32 oz. Big Gulp of milk is any more appropriate for a kid, or anyone else, than one of soda–diet or otherwise. It is teaching the child that a big portion is the norm. If you are thirsty, drink something to quench your thirst, but you only need to drink enough to quench your thirst (and water is a much better thirst quencher than sodas). If it’s a treat, let it be in an appropriate size. At 5, I might have gotten a whole can of soda (although more likely I’d have had to split it with my sister), or a small size at a resturant, even as a teen-ager having more than one can of soda in a day would have caused raised eyebrows,
And, as much as I loved chocolate milk, I drank plenty of milk without the flavoring. A strange thing happened in my house, my Mom actually made some small decisions about what I ate and drank. She was not controling, and my picky habits were accommodated, but I knew to ask if I could have chocolate in my milk and sometimes she said no. If I had said I wouldn’t drink the milk without flavoring, she would have told me I could drink water. By the time I was old enough to make my own chocolate milk, I had been taught that it was a treat and so I’d have one glass (with more chocolate in it than strictly called for) and that would be it.
See, it is possible to teach a child to make good food choices. I was skinny as a kid, had some problems as a teen and maintained a good weight (less that 10 pounds from optimal for height/age) through my 20’s, so even when I was in complete control of my food choices I didn’t start buying huge sodas–I still don’t understand why anyone would buy one. And don’t tell me people share the soda because I doubt that’s the norm.
I’m afraid we are raising a generation of kids to be fat. A six year old is probably not obese because he is subconsciously dealing with an emotional issue, he’s obese because his parents are allowing him to eat too much and of the wrong things. Does the fact that ads are aimed at the kid contribute to this? Yes, as does the fact that the parents may not know what a proper amount of food, for a kid or themselves, really is. Now, when the kid is 16 and has spent his life being teased and failing to live up to media images, he may develop psychological blocks to losing weight, and his body will be real good at hold ign onto that fat so it will just physically be difficult to lose.
When I told that if he drank milk, instead of a huge soda, I didn’t clarify that I meant an actual appropriate serving of milk (or water, but if the kid wants 32 oz. of water, I say let him go for it and just stay close to a bathroom for a while) because I didn’t think it was necessary. It worries my that 32 oz. is considered as commonplace and normal that folks would assume that’s what I was suggesting.
I’ve heard Jeffrey Friedman (the discoverer of Leptin) say that the obesity epidemic is a myth. The reality is we are only about 6-7 lbs heavier than we were in 1990.
What I want to know is, how the hell can people drink 32oz of soda in one sitting. One standard can, which is, what 330ml – 12oz? – leaves me feeling pretty full and bloated. To drink nearly three times that volume is insane! If I even tried drinking that much fizzy drink, I would seriously be vomiting.
No it’s not. It’s pointing out how hard it must be to “eat less, exercise more” when everywhere you go in America portions are enormous.
If kids grow up thinking that a three-egg omelette and a foot-long sub are normal-sized portions then they’re going to eat them. And the bigger the meals you grow up eating, the bigger you’re going to get, and the more food you’re going to want to eat to satisfy your hunger. I grew up eating small portions, and I could not physically finish most meals I bought in the States. I hate being over-full anyway, it makes me feel nauseous, so I left a lot of food on the plate. If I’d grown up with huge portions, however, I would probably be happily tucking away these huge, 1,500-calorie belt-busters.
It’s pretty obvious, if you think about it. By and large, European cities are hundreds of years old, and therefore were built around walking from place to place. Look at central Paris, or London or even some older US cities as examples. While you can’t necessarily walk from point A to point B in a reasonable amount of time, you can take the Tube or Metro most of the way, and have a reasonable walk at either end. Plus, you mostly walk everywhere else, because there’s not much room for cars.
In the US however, most places aren’t laid out like that. I work ridiculously close to my house (< 10 minutes by car), but it’d still take me a long time to walk there. Grocery stores, bars, etc… are all a couple of miles away at least.
I think there’s another factor that people aren’t thinking about- US workers tend to work pretty long hours relative to many other countries. Many people just don’t want to (or can’t) get home from work and then go spend an hour or two at the gym several times a week. It’s just not fun for most people, and voluntarily tacking another 2 hours of drudgery and pain onto a 8-10 hour work day is not likely.
Another issue to consider is that it’s LOTS easier to pack on weight than it is to lose it. Most people aren’t constantly gaining weight- some disruption to their normal rhythm will cause them to overeat, or eat improper foods, and they’ll gain weight relatively quickly. For example, I weighed 270, and went on a exercise and eating plan and lost 50 lbs a couple of years ago. Then in graduate school, I’d find myself eating too much while working on projects, and/or skipping gym sessions, and eating more during finals. This added up to gaining 25 lbs in 2 1/2 years- not a steady 0.83 pounds per month, but more like 3-4 lbs per end of semester, and some assorted weight gain during the rest of the semester and last summer (study abroad!).
To lose those 25 lbs again the right way, it will take 13 weeks of dropping my caloric intake by a fairly significant amount, as well as pretty regular and diligent exercise. Believe me, I’ve been there. It’s not something that is done easily or without serious concentration, committment and willpower.
I think that for the majority of people who are overweight or obese, it’s a matter of cultural and psychological conditions that make it very easy for people to eat more than they burn off, and even more difficult for people to reverse that. Have you ever heard of a boss letting you go early so you can go work out? I haven’t.
This is an excellent question. One I’ve been wondering about beer drinkers for a LONG time. That is, how on earth does one get that much liquid into one’s stomach in a short period of time.
I don’t like regular sodas. MUCH too sweet, and as you said, I would fear not being able to keep it down. That said, I don’t seem to have much trouble with a diet (zero calorie) soda that’s fairly large, but NOT if I’m also trying to eat, for the caffeine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanvasShoes
Your question is nothing more than a more snide way of saying “eat less, exercise more”. Which has been answered, not just in this thread, but in dozens of other “fat threads”.
Ah, sorry, guess that was a kneejerk reaction on my part. As part of the fitness industry, I do tend to get VERY annoyed at those who view this as some simple solution. I agree, the portion sizes are ridiculous. I always ask for a doggie box, and sit down restaurants probably HATE me with a passion because I have all sorts of other 'healthful" requests as well.
It is hard, especially if the obese person is already there at the restaurant to soothe their psyches, it just puts more pressure on them when, not only are they eating a high calorie low density meal, but that they’re presented with a huge amount of them.
I agree, I can’t be “overfull”, for in my old age I’ve developed some sort of lovely gastro-intestinal problem that prevents this, unless I want to wake up at 2am in severe agony and spend the rest of the night praying to Ralph, blech. But as to normal “healthy” individuals, I don’t get it either. I see a lot of programs about obese people, and they say what they eat in a day. I think, "WOW, I’m chunky (supposedly my BMI is 21.78, but I think that with my small frame, I’m really too chunky and that the BMI is skewed), anyway, I am just amazed at all they’re able to eat.
But the concerns you voice above are really part of what I was talking about. There IS a large amount of ignorance regarding how to eat, and portion control is part of it. The trouble with a lot of the foods that you mention is that they’re calorie dense, but not fiber or “satiation dense”. And like any other addictive substance a person needs more and more in order to be satisfied.
And what concerns me even more is “WHY” is overeating so epidemic? What environmental, psychological etc pressures are causing people to react against themselves in this way??
But the problem is that just saying this to the obese, that of "this isn’t the right way to eat or be active) isn’t enough for those who are so completely ignorant of nutrition and fitness facts. And IMHO, seeing as nothing else has worked, the moving toward giving this a name and attention, is a step in the right direction.
Another thing I think needs to happen (slight hijack), and that is that the definition of “success” needs to change in America. If you’re spending 80-100 hours a week and never have time for your family, let alone yourself, how “successful” is one really??
Oh yeah, you have the mercedes, and the house with the pool, but all the stress is showing up as the 100 extra pounds on your poor overworked frame. But, that’s a secondary issue, sorry end hijack
Its a matter of personal difference, the fact that some people can’t tolerate that much doesn’t mean nobody can. I can easily drink 32oz of soda. I probably go through about 180oz a day of milk, diet soda and diet kool aid. I prefer to drink about 25-30oz at a time, right now i’m drinking 24oz of diet kool aid.
And nobody has commented on Friedman’s discovery that we are only 6-7 lbs heavier than we were in 1991. 6-7 lbs can be lost in a month of moderate dieting, so this ‘epidemic’ is nothing like its made out to be. There are women who weigh 161 instead of 155 like they did in 1991, big deal. In a month or a month and a half they could be back down to 155, all this talk of portion control, diet pills, etc. seems excessive.
Where do people get the idea that volition or cause has anything to do with a diagnosis of a physical illness?
HOW you become ill has NOTHING THE FUCK TO DO with whether you ARE ill.
Got it?
Yes, obesity is an illness. So is drug addiction. So is AIDs. All of those conditions may or may not be self-inflicted but a self-inflicted illness is still an illness.
If you inject yourself with smallpox, and then contract smallpox, does that mean you don’t have an illness?
Give me a fucking break. Some people need to learn the meanings of words before they run their mouths off.
Thanks for bringing this up. It’s been rolling around in my head in the last 24 hours since I’ve last seen this thread. The thought was largely brought on by the idiot (or perhaps whoosher) that suggested beating fat kids like pinatas.
So far in this thread we’ve been focusing on the psychology of the obese. But what of the psychology of those that hate the obese? What is it about them that causes them to have such blind rage towards the obese? I invite you all to go back through this thread and reread some of the “eat less/exercise more” posts and take note of how venomous rage completely supplants any trace of logic or learning. To the extent where the beating of children was advocated, even! Where does that hatred come from? What have fat people ever done to you that causes you to abandon all reason and go into a frenzy of anger? Have you ever considered that your own psychotic tendancies may be something you might want to address?
Anyway, portion control is something that has been on my mind lately. I watch Alton Brown on TV, and take note of how he maight make an entire meal of just an omelette, a small salad, and a glass of wine. Is that normal? I don’t even know anymore.
I have also come up with a plan that will slim me down – exercise more, cook healthy for myself. Simple, no? But here’s what it involves: After work, go shopping. Walk to the train instead of taking a cab. Get home, exercise for 30-60 minutes. Then cook dinner. By the time I’m finished, it’s 9:00. To me, that’s not much of a life. It allows no time to destress from the work day. Sure, I could do it, but that’s not much of a life to me. It’s hard to keep up.
But enough of my yakkin’. I’ll stop posting so that I can do 60 minutes of cardio, then 2 hours of intense cleaning, then off to the pool to do some laps, where no doubt a few people will judge me for how lazy I am.
What about paving the way for government regulation of food? I’ve read plenty of people that fear that this is just another step in bringing more government controls into the nation’s daily lives. Some folks argue that if that everyone is paying for obesity, through Medicare and other government programs, that would give the government the “right” to regulate restaurants, supermarkets, and food manufacturers (under the same arguments in which tobacco is regulated). (For context, these are the same people who oppose sin taxes for much the same reasons.)
I’m not sure what to think of this argument, but I’m not sure I want to see warning labels on junk food or more lawsuits against fast food chains and food manufacturers either…
A better idea would be to dump government-subsidized healthcare. If that happened, I (for one) wouldn’t care if fat people were fat, since I wouldn’t be paying for it…
I’m 5’ tall and weigh around 94 pounds and I’ve consumed a 32oz soda before. Not often since I’m more of a water person, but I have. Living in the desert, I drink a gallon of water a day not even counting other liquids so I know it can be done.
Why do you care now? You pay (in one way or another) for a lot of people’s bad habits. Smoking, drinking, eating, speeding, reckless behavior, etc etc. You’re a member of the human race, you can’t escape it. Think you wouldn’t end up paying for it if there were no subsidized insurance?? Hahahahaha, right.
If you have car insurance, you help pay for lawsuits of people who drink and drive.
If you pay taxes, you help pay for ambulances and fire department resources who help speeders and drunks and others who cause accidents on the roadway.
If you have PRIVATE health insurance (individual policy or through your employment), your premiums help pay for a smoker’s illness, a fat person’s illness and (hopefully) the therapist bills to help people who think other people’s illnesses are any of their fucking business.
This is fascinating, and the way you describe it is to describe this tendency to a T. I would be interested in knowing the answer to this, and not in a “now we’re going to beat you down for your opinion” way either. I just don’t get it. Why is it of not only such CONCERN of nonfat people, but something which causes them to be so ANGRY at the obese?? So judgmental, so sure they know the hows and whys, and so on?
Their obesity doesn’t affect the fat hating person’s life directly, so why the hatred? As I said, and no one has yet addressed this point, it’s not as if we Americans get to choose exactly WHERE our personal tax dollars go. And we don’t see such venom aimed at a lot of other tax wasting programs.
And as I said, if I had MY 'druthers, I’d not have mine go to idiots who climb Mt. McKinley, then get stuck and have to be rescued. Or to morons who smoke, get cancer and die, and have to have it paid for by our tax dollars.
But that’s the way the goverment works. We don’t get to choose, we can try, by voting, but you know damn well they’ll spend it on whatever idiotic program they want to. Right now, it’s going toward a war that (what was the last figure from the polls?), 53% of Americans don’t want???
Another good point. One thing is that food isn’t the restaurants biggest cost. Especially since corn is subsidized by the government. So one of the things a restaurant can do to get one up on the competition is to offer HUGE portions, especially knowing the tendency of Americans to appreciate “value”.
And then once presented with the really yummy, and huge portion, they tend to eat more than they should, because “it’s there”. My sister and I frequently go to lunch at a popular “mexican” (as mexican as Alaskan white folks cooking mexican can be :D) in Anchorage. We like the fajitas, which I get “cajun style” (see what I mean? not authentic, but really really good).
Anyway, since I like mine “put me out with a firehose” hot, we always get separate orders, and I swear, we’ve managed to stretch out take home box out to 4 more meals, from a “single” order of fajitas.
One way to do it, and save a lot of time and hassle in the kitchen, not to mention throw a little “fast food” type convenience into your lifestyle, is to cook and freeze ahead. I usually pick a weekend day, and set out all my little gladware containers, and then cook 2 or 3 different recipes. Place in containers in equal portions and freeze. Then if I do end up cooking fresh during the week, I double up, and freeze the extras, that way, I always have a variety of meals ready to go. They’re great to pack for lunch also.
There are a bunch of really good recipes out there. eDiets has a bunch, http://www.mrsbishwitskitchen.com/ has some awesome ones, tasty and she gives the stats for fat/carbs/protein on most of them.
That’s a LOT of cardio!!! Have you considered adding weights? And no, they won’t make us girls “bulky”. Nevermind if you already do, but women lose about a 1/2 a pound of muscle a year once they hit 25, and muscle is where the fat is burned…
Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner, but I’ve been out all weekend.
I have been reading the other posts, and I still think it’s that simple for a majority of people. I worked at a gym for a year and a half, and I have seen too many obese people come in and lose tons of weight for me to believe that it’s completely out of everyone’s control.
Well, to answer your last question first. I think that logically, such an action would decrease the likelihood of any such suit being successful, not increase it. Much in the same way alcoholics would be unsuccessful in suing budweiser. I haven’t seen any try to sue alcohol companies, have you? I mean, it’s possible, it’s just not something I’ve seen.
And secondly, the government subsidizes corn. Currently, unless things change, it’s in their best interests to continue to do so. The farmers, ranchers (corn feeds the meat we eat), grocers, restaurants and fast food places who depend upon this are making huge amounts of money and paying big taxes, so I doubt the government is in any hurry to change THAT status quo.
There was an expose’ on this on 48 hours (or some such, I can never keep those news programs straight), in which they interviewed the Secretary of Health, and the president of a major grocery chain (Lion something or 'nother).
Both people denied that the fact that corn related products were unhealthy in any way, or that the fact that something like 3000 new sugary type grain based snacks were introduced each year, compared to 12 fruit or vegetable related ones (not to mention that fruits and vegetables are NOT subsidized by the govt), had anything to do with the growing number of obese people in America.
I don’t think that having the govt take responsibility and making this an issue worth looking into and helping will cause them to "regulate’ how we can eat anymore than they’ve been able to regulate how people drink (despite the fact that alcoholism is a problem), or spend their money (despite the fact that addictive gambling is a problem), or whatever.
One thing that needs to happen is that they need to fairly subsidize food types, and NOT just put all their eggs in one basket with the corn industry.
Remember one of the links pointing out how many more poor and below the poverty line obese people there are than those who are “doing okay” to the wealthy? Well a lot of that is how fattening the cheaper foods are, those that the poor CAN afford. You know, like how you can get 97 boxes of Kraft Macncheese for a buck? (sarcasm, I know, it’s only about 5 or 10).
For the govt to step in and say, as they sort of have started to in some of the school lunch programs (in Dallas, they’ve stopped allowing the sale of soda on school grounds, or providing it with lunches, and they’ve added fresh fruit and vegetables in the place of things like french fries), isn’t to say we’re going to allow them to tell us what we can put in our mouths.
But it may allow those truly in need to get help, and it may help reduce the stigma, much the same as a similar incidence with alcoholism when people finally stopped treating IT as some sort of evil done 'on purpose" by those with the problem.
Now, of course I don’t know this all for a fact, but reason and history (alcoholism, drug dependency, domestic violence, gambling) tells me that assistance rather than some Fast Food Dystopia is more likely.
