“If you ask a thin person how he keeps so thin, most likely he won’t be able to tell you.” – Covert Bailey
I agree that if a fat person wants to get thin, he should make better choices. But I disagree that most fat people made conscious choices to become fat. What conscious choices to did you make to stay thin? Unless you have battled the fat or are over 50, you probably couldn’t give a meaningful answer. It’s like asking when a person made the choice to become gay or straight. (You already stated that you didn’t think about it much until a doctor’s visit forced you to.)
[QUOTE=tdnBut I disagree that most fat people made conscious choices to become fat. What conscious choices to did you make to stay thin? … It’s like asking when a person made the choice to become gay or straight. [/QUOTE]
Man, tdn–when you were growing up, were you the kid who liked to throw rocks at hornets’ nests?
I wasn’t always fat. In fact, when I graduated from university in 1997, I weighed a very average (for my length) 83 kilograms. Thing is, as a student, I drank like a fish (except, I drank beer), ate cheap greasy shit you wouldn’t feed your dog, and ate far far more than I do now.
The difference? I played squash at least twice a week. I rode a bicycle all the time as my primary transportation. I rode a mountainbike on the weekends - and the area I was in had actual mountains, too.
I started working right after college, and gained about 10 kilograms within the first year. Reasons? LESS. EXCERCISE. I actually ate better and less, and I drank a HELL of a lot less. Didn’t matter. I didn’t practice any sports in any regular fashion, and my ever fatter ass was in a car seat instead of on a bike saddle.
Conscious choices or not? Well, some of them were beyond my control: I couldn’t cycle back and forth to work for a grand total of 80 kilometers per day, certainly not in a suit. Unless I wanted to lengthen my workday by 4 hours, that is. But I could have excercised more by playing more squash, or riding the bike on the weekends instead of hopping in that ever so convenient car.
I gained more than 20 kilograms in about 7 years, and I have no one to blame but myself. Yes, my life changed, but I should have changed WITH it.
Well, in a way, yes, they are. At least among those who have always lived with misinformation and ignorance, they either don’t know what constitutes a good choice, or don’t think about it in the first place.
For years I have heard “Don’t eat bread”, “Eat lots of bread but no sugar”, “Eat no fats and only raw vegetables”, “Don’t eat beef but everything else is OK”, “Try Fen/Phen”, etc. Hell, even doctors and nutritionists who get paid to be experts on the subject can’t agree. I’m more zombified than ever when I go down the aisles of a supermarket. I have little idea of what constitutes a good choice. And I’ve done my homework. Most people haven’t.
Hell, even my own sister (a dietician) and her husband (a fitness trainer) can’t figure out why their children are chubby. No doubt plenty of people on this board have all the answers, of course.
There are two types of people that are very eager to tell you how to lose weight. Type I is the obese. They are experts. They have tried every kind of diet, and can tell you exactly why each one doesn’t work. Type II is the Never Been Obese. They preach like Islamic zealots about how to solve a problem that they themselves have never had to face. Given the choices, I would rather listen to the advice of a Type I person.
I ask this: Of those of you who say that losing weight is so easy, have you tried to lose more than 30 pounds? Were you successful? Has it stayed off for five years or more? If not, your opinion isn’t worth much.
No, but I’ve since taken it up. Bend down, grab a rock, stand up, throw, bend down, grab a rock, stand up, throw, run run run run run. I figure I burn about 700 calories per nest that way.
How are they nothing alike? I work in a trauma center, I’ve ridden in the Life Flight helicopter to help car crash victims and I’ve helped treat obese patients so I’m not some dipshit talking out of his ass about his OPINION of the treatment of obese people.
I’ve been on the scene of car crashes for idiots who were going over 100 miles per hour and crashed into the concrete in the median. Guess I can say “Ohhh man, that sure does suck to be you Mr Speeds like Crazy, but Lord Ashtar thinks people who bring their medical conditions upon themselves are less worthy of sympathy and medical assistance than others so I’m going to get back in the helicopter and look for innocent people to help.”
You don’t seem like a dumb person so I can only imagine that obesity hits some button in you that makes you unreasonable.
MOST PEOPLE bring about their own poor health in one way or another. By your standard, those peope deserve it. Get over yourself, seriously.
Look out medical world, Crafter Man has found the breakthrough treatment for treating addiction! Nobel Prize time!
So, to summarize your new plan…
Alcoholics & drug addicts decide to party.
Alcoholics & drug addicts make a decision to consume drugs & alcohol.
Alcoholics & drug addicts make a decision not to stop.
So, there we go. They ask for it and it’s really just simple enough. Can’t wait to see my first crack addicted patient so I can tell them. “Hey, here’s what you can do… just stop. And tell them Crafter Man gave you the advice ;)”
Oh wait, your new plan works for heart attack victims too!
Heart attack victims decide to stress out and work too much.
Heart attack victims decide to put off seeing dr about medication.
Heart attack victims make a deicsion not to commit to healthier habits that bring on many heart attacks.
Heyyyy look, it was their fault too! Wait, wait… it works for a LOT of illnesses and health issues. I can treat everyone with the “it’s your fault” theory. Can’t wait to try it.
Look, I’m not saying that there are no choices. There are.
I’m not saying that society is entirely to blame. It isn’t.
I’m not saying that fat people get a pass on personal responsibility. They don’t.
What I’m say is that:
-There is often confusion about what differentiates a good choice from a bad one, and even experts share in this confusion.
-While information about such choices is not hard to come by, it doesn’t always present itself clearly, and is often confounded with lies (advertising and such).
-Modern society sometimes reduces the number of choices we have, or the way in which we can make them.
-There are often aggrevating circumstances to making such choices, which may be societal, hormonal, or psychological.
Of the four points I have made, numbers 1, 2, and 4 have been dealt with already. Let me address #3 with a little anecdotal “evidence.”
I’d get a bit more exercise if I walked partway home from work. In addition to the extra time involved, there is the danger of crossing major streets populated by maniacs. I take my life in my hands every time I cross those roads. In addition, going that way in winter involves my walking on icy paths in the dark. If they’ve been plowed. There is no better way to get home than taking a cab.
I’d join a gym, but I don’t like the fees, nor do I relish the idea of puffing my way through a sea of meat-market hardbodies who will no doubt snicker behind my back.
I’d do aerobics at home, but I want to be considerate of my downstairs neighbor.
I’d eat more whole grain bread, but most places around here don’t even carry it. It’s Wonder Bread or nothing.
I’d eat more veggies, but they go bad by the time I get to them.
I’d eat more lean meats, but there seems to be little choice in the stores. One supermarket opened last year, but they don’t even have a butcher. And I had to live a year without even that. All I had nearby was a 7-11.
I’d cook more for myself, but… Well, I already talked about that in a previous post.
Are these excuses? You could look at them that way, but I’m trying to see them more as obstacles to be overcome. And I am overcoming them. But it often seems as if the deck is stacked against me. Living where I do, life is not set up for healthful living, it’s set up for being profitable to business owners and expedient for auto traffic.
I think I’ve made great strides in working towards a thinner life, but it’s taken a good bit of ingenuity and resolve. I could see how someone less tenacious could easily give up.
I obviously can’t look inside your wallet, but could you concievably join a gym? I mean, sure, they’re expensive, but would it seriously make things that much harder for you financially?
If the answer is “no”, then the argument about people snickering behind your back is an excuse. Who cares what people think? You’re not going to work out to please others - you’re doing it for your own health. I’m usually one of the fattest people at the gym I work out at, and I don’t care. Don’t care if they laugh at me, don’t care what they think, don’t care if I look ridiculous. I’m there for me, not for them. If anything, it motivates me to run fucking faster.
I know circumstances can be hard to deal with, and I know from experience that getting good, affordable food in America IS a challenge. But working out doesn’t even need to cost that much - you could go jogging, for instance.
Just curious… where do you live that you can only get Wonder bread? Even small stores (and convenience stores) carry at least a choice of white and wheat.
Veggies? Frozen or canned are better than none at all. Canned green beans aren’t great, but it’s better than not eating greens ever. Frozen veggies are just as good as fresh, IMO. I buy frozen green beans and broccoli all the time when it’s not in season, and it’s cheaper, too. Just take out what you need, steam it or microwave it a few minutes and it’s done. Keep it tightly closed and it keeps for a while. Even if you cook too much, stick it in the fridge and warm it back up the next day.
Lean meats, again, where do you live that you can’t get fresh meat at the store? Is there something other than a 7-11 where you can gets meats?
Well, I, for one, think it is an overstatement that non-fat people are ANGRY at fat people. Judgmental…Yes. Sure of their stereotypes…Yes. But I rarely see actual ANGER. Definitely distaste. Maybe some irrational dislike. But not really angry. Of course, your mileage may vary.
And I can come up with two reasons that there may exist such dislike in this society for the obese.
First, being overweight has, since time immemorial, been a sign of gluttony. Gluttons are, traditionally, despised for both their lack of self-control and, more important in a historic context, envied for their lack of want. For a vast majority of human civilization, the fat person was the aristocrat who had all he needed, and then some (think Henry VIIIth). In part because of class-hatred and jealousy, fat people (note: not rubenesque) were despised because they COULD be fat whereas a vast majority of the people in the world simply couldn’t. I think a good part of the reason for the dislike of obese people currently, especially in countries other than America, is that obesity is a sign of overindulgence while others starve.
Secondly, and, in all honesty the most vapid answer is that, in our society Fat = ugly. This viewpoint is constantly enforced by the media. However, whereas people who are just normally ugly are to be pitied, fat people, who are presumed to have control over their weight, can be openly despised for being ugly. This to, is nothing new in the world of human society.
So, in short, obese people are seen as gluttonous and ugly. Neither of which is endearing to the public at large.
I would try, at all costs, to avoid canned vegetables and go with fresh. There is SO much sodium in canned vegetables, and if you have high blood pressure that is not a good choice. I’d hate to see you increase your blood pressure, have a heart attack or stroke and then have one of the idiots in this thread say that you ate too much salt and it’s your own fault.
Jesus on a motorised pogo stick, this is not rocket science! If you follow the link I gave, then click on ‘hypothyroidism’, you will see:
‘Secondary Hypothyroidism. Finally, there are some rare causes of hypothyroidism related to brain diseases, also called secondary hypothyroidism. Disorders of the pituitary gland or hypothalamus portions of the brain may cause thyroid hormone deficiency in addition to other hormonal imbalances. This type of rare hypothyroidism can also be treated with thyroid hormone medication.’
I didn’t link directly to the hypothyroidism page because (i) the site is set up in frames, and linking to the main page allows the full site to be viewed. It’s quite a nice site, and (ii) I figured that anyone with their head correctly aligned on their shoulders could see the ‘hypothyroidism’ link given that it is right up top of the list of conditions.
Perhaps you’d like me to move your mouse for you?
See above. Your search was cursory at best (searching for pituitary would have worked though, or just quickly scanning down the page).
It’s in the fucking paper, Einstein - follow the link at the top of the page labelled ‘PDF (183k)’. As I said, see Fig. 2.
Now, it’s possible that you don’t have access to the PDF. In that case, probably best not to comment that something is not in the paper, if you ain’t read the paper, aye…? In my last message I even said where in the paper the data was presented, and the title of the appropriate graph!
You’re having a hard time following my sources because you are not following my sources. We’re talking about hypopituitarism because it was the first paper I came across during a quick search that directly addressed obesity and hypothyroid conditions. Basically, secondary hypothyroidism is a reduction in thyroid function, just as primary hypothyroidism is - hence relevant.
This is an evidence-free leap of faith: If there’s no evidence that much obesity is disease-derived, hey, let’s just ascribe it to some as yet unknown disease!
I present you with facts, and you attempt to dismiss them - in a rude and insulting way, indeed - even though you have clearly made no attempt to read the cites!
Again, I say proportionately relatively few, and you provide exactly bugger-all evidence to the contrary. Whereas I provide evidence with which to support my position, to a large extent.
Incidentally, just because most obseity is not disease-related does not mean that all obese people shouldn’t have access to help in overcoming their obesity (if you’ll excuse the carcrash of double negatives). IMO. However, I object to assigning a cultural or societal phenomenon ‘disease’ status.
Joining a club would cost me a fortune, mostly because I’d never go. There’s another extra “yuck” factor that’s hard for me to identify. Part of it may be the whole going home in sweaty clothes or showering and changing at the gym thing. I can say with confidence that that alone would keep me away. If there were a gym closer to my home, I might go, but there isn’t one.
I have managed to solve the problem, and that’s doing Tae Bo at home. I’ve had to modify it to be less high impact (both for the sake of my knees and my downstairs neighbor). I tend not to want to do it on weekdays, but I’m working on that problem. The thing is, it took me years to come to that. It’s the only exercise that I haven’t quit, and I’ve tried lots of stuff.
I’m also coming up with new stuff. Today I realized that when I go out for smoke breaks at work, I can walk around instead of just standing there. Just 15 minutes ago I discovered a part of the city I didn’t even know existed.
Yesterday I decided that just because my apartment has an elevator doesn’t mean that the stairs are off limits. A few months ago, when the elevator was out for six weeks, the stairs were my only source of exercise (trust me, there were no other choices), and that was pretty good. So I figured that it might make a nice supplement to the Tae Bo.
Still, it took me a while to discover these things, or even get myself to a mindset where I wanted to.
I would avoid canned veggies, too, but tdn made the comment that veggies go bad before he can eat them… so canned would be better than none at all. Some varieties are available in low-sodium now.
Frozen would be best if fresh isn’t available or if you don’t eat it fast enough and it goes bad. Some kind of veggie is better than none at all. Just saying that they go bad too quickly is an excuse, IMO. There are other options - buy less fresh or buy frozen. Canned would be the last resort.
I’m far too lazy to try to find the Pit thread where I was urged by other dopers to call the department of health on every store in my vicinity. shudder Yes, some of them had wheat bread (but sometimes mouldy), but a lot of things were simply out of stock. Many a time there was nothing I wanted to buy there.
There is now, but for a long time there wasn’t. And even the place I go now has no butcher. If it ain’t in styrofoam, they ain’t got it.
They have some small variety of healthy foods, but one has to do a lot of smart shopping to find it. I’m getting better at it.
Buying less would seem a much better choice, you’re right.
Slight hijack: I’m a single person who lives by herself and food used to go bad on me a lot because I’d buy too much. I purchased one of those Foodsavers you see on TV (ugh, infomercial!!) and it really works. When I get home from the store, I clean all of my fruits and vegetables and I put them in bags and vacuum pack them with the Foodsaver. Fresh food that usually only lasts a couple of days can honestly last 2 weeks.
I’ve seen them in the grocery store now selling for $99.00 including bags. They are worth every penny in money you save from your grocery bill.
The difference between you and me is that I don’t subscribe to the “everyone’s a victim” mentality. The simple fact of the matter is everyone makes choices. Some choices have good outcomes, some choices have bad outcomes. While I concede there are situations where a person is truly a victim, such occurrences are exceedingly rare IMO.
For the most part,
If you’re fat it’s your fault.
If you’re a drug addict it’s your fault.
If you’re an alcoholic it’s your fault.
If you’re addicted to nicotine it’s your fault.
If you have a criminal record it’s your fault.
If you’re drowning in debt it’s (usually) your fault.
If you’re pregnant it’s (almost always) your fault.
I could go on and on. But hopefully you get the point.
Thankfully, it isn’t the only difference between you and me.
I’m not saying anyone is a victim so you can remove that notion from your head. You really do read a lot into a post huh?
My point is simply that many people who have posted here seem to think that obese patients are more to blame than anyone else for their medical problems. I have repeatedly stated my position that most people bring about their own ill health in one way or another. Some people were even suggesting that we not give treatment (bypass surgery, etc etc) to obese people. To me, that is the height of stupidity since the bypass surgery would be far cheaper than paying for their multitude of medical issues which will far exceed the price of a surgery now.
You, on the other hand, seem to just have an across the board feeling of blame which I can respect more than the pick and choose variety that some here subscribe to.
