#OccupyWallStreet

The BBQ Pit
601

Finally- a chance to sit down at the computer again.
Syclla-I’m not sure why you’re calling yourself an asshole. I certainly don’t see you as one.I’m also not sure why you are apologizing.
Without trying to be the least bit disparaging-I doubt you were directly responsible for toxic derivatives or the dismantlingof Glass-Steagall or even the housing bubble.
Were you?

To quickly address a few of your points:

This may sound astoundingly naive but yes, I do place a lot of the blame for the lack of veteran’s benefits on the corporations.
Why?
Well, put simply the money for the military (and schools and roads and social services etc) has to come from somewhere.
If companies like Exxon and Fed-Ex and GE pay no taxes, there’s less money to go around.
(We won’t even get into how the military industrial complex propelled us into Iraq and Afghanistan because I have chickens that will need water soon and discussing that could take up the rest of the afternoon.)

And as I said, I didn’t have much hope for Obama during the elections but at least he promised that he would close Gitmo, restore transparency to government and serve the majority.
Plus, quite honestly, I was really tired and I wanted a little break from the peace activism work I had been doing for the last 5 years. I had outrage fatigue.

I do agree that we have to "… as a society need to get lean and mean, and suffer for a while, readjust our expectations, so that we can be competitive and excel. "
I think many of us have a frightening sense of entitlement.
However, I don’t think it’s the exclusively the young that are self-absorbed and self-entitled.
I see plenty of it in my own generation.
We live in a culture that constantly pumps the message that you are what you drive or where you live or how much money you make.
That it’s ok and even smart to screw people over if you can make a buck doing it because the consquences will be negligible.

The system worked well for the majority-white men-in the 50’s and 60’s.
Not so good, of course, you were a person of color or gay or a woman.
Oddly enough, that was also the height of union power and the time that corporations paid substantially more in taxes.
See, here’s the thing. I do read history.
I know what happens when there is a great disparity in wealth.
I know what happens when you slash the social services net.
May I recommend “Ill Fare’s the Land” by Tony Judt if you haven’t read it.
Or “Voltaire’s Bastards” by John Saul.
I want a better system then one that let’s the majority of the world’s population live in poverty and fear.
Yeah, I’m a flaming idealist.
As Ji

You asked what I think will happen if we take to the streets.
I think we will force a dialogue.
I think we may get some sort of accountability.
I think we may get citizen participation again instead of apathy.
I think we may get change.
It’s got to start somewhere.
Yeah, I’m a raging idealist and I believe,as Jim Hightower said “So now is the time, more than ever, for those who truly value all the principles of democracy, especially including dissent, to be the most forceful in speaking up, standing up and speaking out.”

I’ve skimmed this thread and I’ve seen a lot of derision because the NYC occupiers supposedly lack an easily quotable agenda. How many people have actually gone to an occupation in their city to find out what’s really happening?
I attended the first general assembly of Occupy Austin.
Let me tell you what I saw:
A well organized meeting to establish local criteria that we could address as concerned citizens.
Proposals put forth that directly impact Austin.
One committee had a list of local credit unions with comparison of services for those who wanted to get their money out of the major banks like BOA.
Another issue addressed was the piss poor management of the Capitol Metro-our local bus/light rail service.
Cap Met used to offer greatly reduced fares for the disabled or the elderly but bad business practices and the reduction of sales tax revenues have forced it to make budget cuts and of course, the target is those who could least afford it.
A group was formed to block funding police surveillance cameras in Austin at a time when crime is low and the city is cutting vital social services.
A group was formed to help institute campaign finance reform.
A spokesman for the Save Our Springs alliance give a quick speech on how to force the city council to stop the building of a water treatment plant that is extremely costly and unneccesary.
That was just in the first afternoon.

I also saw tremendous respect and diversity.
I saw people getting registered to vote for the first time.
I saw an occupier in a wheelchair with the sign “Please don’t cut my Medicaid.
I saw another with a placard that said 'Give my parent’s retirement back.”
(I also saw one that said “Eat your vegetables”. That might have been Bricker’s PETA person).
I saw a marine in full dress uniform.
I saw nurses, and teachers, and social workers and firemen and EMS workers.
I saw the obligatory bad poet take the mike.
I saw, or rather heard, the equally obligatory drum circle.
I saw an absurd amount of police officers at Occupy Austin-including at least two SWAT teams postioned on the roofs of the surrounding buildings.
I had a moment of extreme irony when a young protestor asked me what he should put on his signage.
Most improtantly, I I saw kids unpug their Ipods and get involved in a participatory democracy for the first time in their lives.
It was great! I’m going back tomorrow afternoon.

Mr. Krugman summed it up nicely for me:

http://www.chron.com/opinion/outlook/article/Wall-Street-protest-offers-Obama-a-second-chance-2208322.php
(Of course, Krugman is still waiting for Obama to finally make a stand but nobody’s right about everything.)

602

Hate to tell you – well, not really, we are fighting ignorance after all – that you’re as wrong in your prediction as was the OP in his. You’re just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

Poll reveals armies of US dissidents

*****added source.

So either stand on the sideline & hurl epithets or post your picture here:

We are the 99 percent.

You’re welcome.

Hola Big Svin! Good to see you’re still around. How am I? Growing old, cynical and tired of all the BS – yet watching “Los Indignados” spread like wildfire all over the world has given me a sliver of hope. If nothing else I know I am not alone; far from it, for we are the 99 percent!

Trust all is well w/you and yours.

603

All would have been well—for each individual—if they 1) had a lawyer take them through the documents and 2) acted prudently. Just because the bank will give you an amount up to more than the value of the home does not mean you have to take that money.

All would have been well if banks weren’t pushed to offer loans to people who previously never qualified. THAT is where the problem started.

604

Oh, those poor banks! Crushed in the iron grip of Barney Frank. If only they had some political power, some representation, some one on their side! Alas, no.

605

If you think I’m sorry for the banks, you are very mistaken. Granted, you have a lot of experience with that. Fuck the banks. The point remains that if the banks weren’t pushed to enter into practices that for years and years, left to their own devices, they completely avoided, we would never be in the mess we’re now in.

606

The banks did the pushing. The loans were generated by mortgage companies that grew like weeds on every street corner. They took advantage of the internet and buried people with offers that sounded too good to be true. They also ran a commercial every 15 minutes making the same promises.
But understand that the banks were in back of all the loans. The mortgage companies worked for them. The ratings agencies worked for them. The estimators worked for them. Our senators and congressmen worked for them. The regulators were bought off by them.

607

So why are you not railing against those that were bought off? The elected officials who were beholden to us? Why don’t you rail against those in congress that pushed for lower loan standards? Without that, zero mortgage crisis. I’m very curious to hear your answer. Assuming you actually answer what I asked here, which is a long shot, I know.

608

While that’s absolutely true, nonetheless–our economy is structured with the assumption that a great many people can afford at least a few expensive consumer goods. Its no good for anyone in the long run if the average wage for the blue-collar set depresses too far.

Hell if I know what a solution to THAT is other than trade protectionism, which is its own set of problems.

To be honest, I gave up on that argument a long time ago. Too many damn sports cultists among the people I talk to in meatspace about this kind of thing. :smiley:

609

  1. Sole proprietorships lack limited liability. So if corporations were treated as individuals running businesses they would… lack limited liability. One has little or nothing to do with the other.

  2. The biggest issue with the Corporate Personhood doctrine turns on whether corporations have free speech rights; a secondary one involves due process considerations. Corporate apologists claim fifth amendment protections: companies they say shouldn’t have to worry about self-incrimination. Now as a matter statute some of these things may or may not make sense. But as a matter of constitutional law? Did the founders and postbellum architects really have corporations in mind when they passed the first, fifth and 14th amendments? And this is something that Congress or the states shouldn’t be able to over-ride?

Ah, but it’s the dirty fucking hippies questioning corporate personhood. That’s the rub: right?
magellan01: "The point remains that if the banks weren’t pushed to enter into practices that for years and years, left to their own devices, they completely avoided, we would never be in the mess we’re now in. "

So wrong in so many ways. Banks fuck up constantly: remember the S&L crisis? Excess loans to the 3rd world in the 1970s based on the supposition that countries can’t go bankrupt? There’s a financial cockup about once every 7 years or so. Furthermore, a lot of the worst excesses were done by nonbanking entities who wrote mortgages. Finally, pinning sole blame on amateur housing purchasers taken in by slicksters is silly. For one thing it totally ignores the role of structured investment products – and the banking crisis extended into Europe, remember? For another, it reflects a touching faith in the perfection of free markets:

It is pure folly to emphasize 1 screwup of 7.

610

It is also wrong to imply the banks were forced into making bad loans by the people getting a mortgage. All the power is in the hands of the bank. They can refuse a loan. They are doing it now like crazy. Terms have changed . It takes money down and a very good credit rating to get a mortgage. Why aren’t the consumers forcing the poor defenseless banks to drop their standards again? Because they can not. They could not do it before either.

611

I’ve been trying to put my finger on why these Occupy protesters are just nuts of a different political persuasion (aside from the fact that I know the lead organizer locally is a Troofer) and I think you’ve nailed it.

Yes, all rich people are seen as bad solely because they’re rich. Not for any particular sins and definitely not for all the jobs these formerly middle class entrepreneurs created. Occupy, protest, whatever. But don’t forget to go to work and keep fighting for all the shit you can do from inside the system. It wouldn’t solve anything, but I wonder what would happen if these Occupiers tried to push word up the chain of command that hiring another person would help with their jobs. Maybe the higher-ups will listen and maybe the 99%ers can be “job creators” too.

612

Work smarter, not harder. There is no “I” in team. Where do you see yourself in five years, Justin? Are you sure you’re quite happy here at WeSaySo? Really? Well, we are certainly pleased to hear it, that you are a team player, willing to go that extra mile, take a bullet for an “attaboy!” e-mail.

Now, was there some workplace issue you wanted to discuss? Well, fine, then, just never forget, my door is always open. Unless I’m on the phone with somebody important.

613

Created? Lots of jobs in the old Soviet Union - what was lacking was wealth.

Jobs are created from the interworkings of the wage setting process and final demand for goods and services. What efficient entrepreneurs produce is value-added and wealth. That’s a good thing, but it is something different. What you are espousing is folk economics.

And let’s face it msmith cherry picked out of the Forbes 400 list. The two top 10 Koch Bros earned their fortune partly off of massive tax breaks from the energy sector while breaking the law and trading with America’s enemy, Iran. Sam Walton made enormous contributions to the US’s wealth (though bigger advancements were probably made after his death). Christy Walton, Jim Walton, Alice Walton not so much. You have to be pretty far into denial not to acknowledge this.

Jesus, I guess the Stockholm Syndrome is real.

ETA: The funny thing is that true business innovators like the late Steve Jobs rank somewhere nearer the middle of the list, not the top. Admittedly Buffet is in the 2nd slot.

614

I’m a librarian. Corporate bullshit is something I will never have to deal with. Shrinking government support of the library even as use goes way up? You betcha. But corporate bullshit? Never.

615

Why won’t anyone hire me? I have such a great attitude and work ethic!

Why shouldn’t a corporation be subject to due process (14th)? Should the government just be able to arbitrarily disolve corporations based on whim or political convenience?
“Free speech” (which would be 1st Amendment) applies to corporations in that, as an oranization, they can state their oppinion the same way you and I can (within the boundaries of libel and slander laws). That is a good thing, as the government should not have the ability to arbitrarily decide which organizations can express themselves.

616

That was a great post. I had to read it thrice.

617

Don’t worry. If you keep working, you’ll be fully literate someday.

618

Oh I do rail. But it was not the congressmen pushing banks to lower the standards. It was the banks in charge. The banks lowered standards incrementally. The monster CDOs they were creating and making huge profits on, required a constant supply of mortgages. It did not matter how good or bad they were. They needed volume.
Note to rightys. The banks do not do what the politicians say. The politicians do what the banks say. That is why Glass /Steagal got killed. That is why regulation got gutted. That is why SWAPs were not called insurance. That is why bankers were able to maintain their salaries and bonuses while the tax payers were bailing them out.
Must you be such a childish insulter. Try staying on topic and we will do fine. I avoid insulting you and it would be easy. But I believe you think you know what you are talking about. I hope you have your eyes open. You do not see the cause of the financial crisis yet. I have hope.
In a macro economic crisis you give a micro economic response.

619

How many people would Bush have had to have tortured before you didn’t argue that he didn’t lie when he said “America does not torture”, basing your argument on the grounds that the Republicans wrote themselves a memo saying it’s okay to torture people? The slam may be hyperbolic, but it’s very much called for.

620

My point, since lil’ Bricker has so much trouble with it, is that he’d be perfectly happy to shove anyone into an oven, so long as the proper paperwork was approved by the people he has chose to serve.

Why did I do a Star of David? Well, let’s face it, it was just short hand. And really, don’t worry, lil’ Bricker, your group will get around to persecuting the rest eventually. Right now they’re aiming at unions, homosexuals, women, and children more than zero days old.

I imagine that immigrants, or the children of immigrants (brown ones, anyway) are way down the list - after all, there’s so much hating to do that you’ll probably be fine. You seem to know which side of the plantation you’re supposed to stay on.

-Joe