Of Guys & Girls and Men & Women

In My Humble Opinion
1

So…at what point in one’s life do they stop identifying, both publicly and privately, as guys or girls, and start thinking of themselves as men or women?

Maybe it’s my non-feminist mindset(I always balked at my feminist RA’s assertion that we lived in a “women’s” not “girls’” dorm), but I still primarily identify with the term “girl” not “woman” and I know it’s the same for many of the other females my age. I’m sure the males I know feel the same about the term “guy” vs “man” too. We’re not children, of course, being in our 20’s, but…we don’t feel 100% adult yet. Which is another question entirely: when do you feel “all grown up”? Late 20’s? Mid 30’s? Never?

2

Frank Zappa once said in an interview,

“A girl wants a boy to kiss her on the cheek.
A lady wants a guy to kiss her ass.
A woman wants a man to kiss her pussy.”

He thought of girls as paired with boys, “ladies” with “guys”, and women with men. I think by girls and boys he meant immature people. “Ladies” and “guys” seems to mean grownups playing unreal social roles, whereas to him men and women meant fully mature grownups who are in touch with their natural sensuality. Or something like that.

3

No real cutoff for me. I think of myself as, well, me. I guess ‘woman’ would be what I use. (I’m 27, btw, in case that’s a relevant data point.)

But mostly it’s contextual, based on what I use first - I also pair words like Jomo described above. However, I pair ‘girl’ with ‘guy.’ (No offense to Frank Z, but ‘guy’ and ‘lady’ don’t seem to go together in my mind.) So if I start out talking about the males of a group, and it’s an informal situation, I will most likely use the word ‘guy.’ After that, any females in the group will be ‘girls,’ no matter what the age. On the other hand, if I start out talking about the females, they will be ‘women’ and the males will be ‘men.’

But then, I dunno, I find the whole business weird, anyway. My Loved One and I went out to dinner a few weeks ago, and the waiter said ‘Hi, girls, and welcome to the [restaurant]! My name is [name] and I’ll be your waiter…’ He trailed off, realizing some had gone wrong; we were nonplussed, and looked it, because waiters normally say ‘ladies’ in that speech. This conversation then ensued:

Waiter: Oops, was that offensive, me saying girls?
Me: Nope.
Waiter: Because normally women take it as a compliment. I guess you’re not that old yet, huh?
Me [trying not to laugh]: Not yet, no.
Waiter: Oh. I didn’t mean anything bad. Mostly they take it as a compliment, but some really young ones take it as an insult, but I just figured, when I saw you…[he trails off, realizing there’s no good way to finish this sentence]
Me [definitely laughing now]: No, no, it’s okay. Really! But I think you’d better quit while you’re ahead.
Waiter: Okay. Wait, I haven’t done the wine yet. [Stands there for several seconds, looking lost.] Um. Can we just start over?
Me and LO (who had sat like a stone up to this point) together: Sure.
Me: Probably for the best.

And he literally turned around, walked ten feet away, came back, and started again at the beginning, this time with ‘Hello, ladies, and welcome…’

That place normally has incompetent service, but he was a good waiter as far as order-taking and getting-food-out and so forth went. So I figure, either that was a great act, or he really didn’t know why it’s better to say ‘ladies’ in situations like that - most likely the former. But if the latter, I think now he’s learned.

4

My friends and I are 18/19, and we still use “girl”. I can’t see calling myself a “woman” until I’m in my late twenties, which is odd because I thought that I would feel “womanly” when I turned 18. Conversely, my male friends of the same age have been using the term “men” to describe themselves for years.

5

All of these terms are subject to vagueness, but in general, I refer to pre-adolescents as “young men” and “young ladies” (I’m in the South and try to be particularly conscious about potentially offensive terms, so “boy” is right out in my day-to-day life). Adolescents may get “young man/lady” but will more likely get “guy” or “lady” (as in “I need for you ladies to please quiet down” or “Could you guys find somewhere else to play hackeysack?”). Sometimes I’ll mix in a “gentleman.”

“Man”/“woman” is all about dignity and self-confidence to me. I can’t define a “woman,” but I know one when I see her. I’ve known women who were 17 and females who weren’t women in their 40s. Sorry that’s so nebulous, but that’s sort of how it is for me. :slight_smile:

Oh, and I use “guy” informally for persons of any gender. Any? I mean either. Whatever.

6

For me, men and women both begin from 18. From that point on, no more boys* or girls!

There is something inherently dignified and solid about the words man and woman. We should not be bashful about using them for human grownups.

One language habit that has become common the last several years, something I hate, is to avoid saying “man” and “woman,” replacing them with “male” and “female.” You hear people saying things like “I’m a male.” Fuck that! Say “I’m a man!” Say it boldly out loud. The terms “male” and “female” come across as wishy-washy. Manhood and womanhood are nothing to hide. Give respect to yourself and say “man” and “woman.”

Why have people become inhibited about using the words man and woman? There is a sense of forthright, unabashed sexual maturity implied in them. Is that what frightens people?
[sub]*This usage has changed from the 18th century, when “boys” could refer to grown men. For example, Ethan Allen’s “Green Mountain Boys,” a team of doughty commandos in the Revolutionary War. But that usage is now obsolete.[/sub]