Wha? :dubious: Who says “meer” for mirror? I say it closer to Mirr-er, than Mirr-OR, but have never in my life heard MEER from anyone.
When using “forte” to refer to what someone is good at, i.e. “painting is her forte,” it *should *be pronounced “fort.” The for-tay version refers to the musical term. However, the mispronunciation is now basically standard, because the impression is if you say it properly people will think you don’t know how to say the word.
Different accents/dialects choose to hang on to different things. I don’t mock Americans for using “gotten”, although weirdly someone once had a go at me on here for using “whilst”.
People from where I come from generally sound the “T” slightly. It is how we speak. Which makes your “and I suspect those who say “often” are hypercorrecting based on the spelling” wrong. And a bit judgmental.
And I grew up about ten miles from where Shakespeare did. Fuck, I wonder what he said? Probably something mental, like a sounded T at the beginning, no “T” in the middle and a glottal stop somewhere just for shits and giggles.
Yeah, and I started it.
Without the “T” won 71 - 29.
Off-ten.
IPA: ɑɔftǝn
I think pronouncing it is more commonplace in the south / among those who grew up in the south.
I actually I say it both ways, it depends on the sentence and the inflection I’m using on it and the words around it.
It’s FORT.
I hate it when I hear ‘for-tay’.
Issues much? It does not make my statement wrong. It merely provides anecdotal evidence that SOME of those who pronounce the -t- are not hypercorrecting. “Some” is only a subset of “all.”
Generally, when you have two pronunciations within a given accent or dialect region that are not otherwise mappable onto identity markers such as gender, class, or ethnicity, and one of those two reflects the spelling, the last is a hypercorrection based on orthography.
If you meant ‘some’ then you probably, you know, should have written that. But you didn’t.
I’d actually put money on half the UK pronouncing the ‘T’. English is spoken differently in different parts of the world. Like the weirdo pronunciation of ‘water’ that appears common in large parts of North America that seems to forgo the whole ‘T’ thing and go for a ‘D’ instead.
I reckon you need to travel more. Or at least watch some foreign TV.
I don’t know why this is upsetting you so. I’m very well informed about the role of dialectal variation in language. I lived in the UK for a number of years. My husband is British. I just don’t agree with you about this particular issue, ONE pronunciation in ONE word, and I’ve provided a reasonably authoritative citation. I don’t see why you keep trying to expand this to broader points. People in my dialect hypercorrect all the time, particularly me > I and me > myself; so what? It’s language; people do that.
You said “those that say ‘often’”, not “some of those that say ‘often’”, thereby charging all of us oft’ners with hypercorrection. But it’s not an affectation. That’s how it is actually pronounced, sometimes.
Ofn. It is the only pronunciation shown in my dictionary. (Note there is also no “e” in it either.) All Canadians say “of-ten” Well, they also say “shedule”. “You pays your money and you makes your choice.” Then there is the name of the last letter. But I stop here.
“Dreaming of apples on a wall,
And dreaming often, dear.
I dreamt that, if I counted all,
how many would appear?”
---- Lewis Carroll
ten
Okay. I’m willing to admit to being wrong, and apologize for making a blanket statement.
Two points: (1) Hypercorrections are not the same as affectations, either in denotation or connotation. (2) I didn’t speak from a position of authority. In fact, I indicated that it was an opinion by saying “I suspect that…” and then went and did some research in a later post when called on it. I don’t mind being wrong and I don’t mind learning from my mistakes, but I don’t understand why people are being offended. Really: speak however you happen to speak. I don’t care and I can’t conceive of having a problem with it. I find the variation really interesting.
1926 is 85 years ago. Not what I would call recent. Certainly long enough ago for people to now pronounce the “t” simply because their parents and grandparents also pronounced it.
[1] No.
[2] No.
Bold insertions are mine.
Or was this a whoosh?
More of this descriptivism crap. Fine, from now on I’m going to pronounce it as “OFF - A - TON,” and try telling me I’m wrong.
I think I heard “meer” among my Arkansas relatives. That’s where my mother was from, but I can’t remember how she herself said it. May be a regional thing.
I’m sure you’ve heard “iron” pronounced as “arn”
I pronounce it ‘off-ten’ but I remember being taught at school that it should be ‘off-en’. I guess I just pronounce it the way my parents did.