Good Lord! When was this?
July, 1996.
Jesus, Una, what a horror story. The airline made no apology? Not a single person sued?
I wouldn’t have been able to stand it. I would open the fucking emergency doors. If someone had to take the bullet and spend a night in jail, I would do it. Somebody has to go first in those situations. Once the door is open and the first person leaves the plane, the rest would follow, The airline isn’t going to have everybody arrested and would probably have no grounds anyway. I would have to open a door to keep myself from bashing that fucking stewardess’s head against the bulkhead, especially if children and infants were suffering on the plane.
I tired to edit the above - not that it matters, but it was June, not July. I forgot.
Diogenes - AFAIK, none, but I didn’t know more than a couple people on the flight. It’s possible everyone else got an apology, or someone filed a suit, but I wouldn’t know if they had.
One reason that the sitting was so bad was that it was an MCI-DFW flight - typically only 1.5 hours, sometimes less. People weren’t prepared for the long haul of, say, an overseas or Boston-LA flight. Pretty much no one had food or liquid of any kind, and the plane had minimal service. Most people packed light because they expected to be on the ground again in no time, relatively speaking.
The stewardesses acted like terrorists themselves. Using the threat of federal arrest to order people to do things unreasonable and not impacting the safety of anyone on the plane. It was disgusting. I boycotted American Airlines over it for about a year, but was forced to fly them again by my company. It still makes me nervous and my hands shake a little just to type it. And I’m used to long flights, where you go places - I was very happy on my 14.5 hour Detroit-Osaka flight this last Fall, because we were going somewhere, and not trapped. There was certainty, or at least confidence, that we would get off when it landed and be free to go.
It’s disgusting that the airlines are allowed to hold people prisoner like this. There should be a Federal law of 1 hour on the tarmac or back to the gate, and I don’t care how much it costs the industry. Not holding people prisoner is just part of the cost of doing business IMO.
I was listening to a airline pilot on a radio show last night who said that pilots get paid based on how much time they spend away from the gate. As long as they’re away from the gate, they’re on the clock. As soon as they dock at a gate, they’re OFF the clock. That means that they might be reluctant to return to a gate because they want to pad their paychecks. The pilot who was interviewed denied that any pilot would think that way or stay on the tarmac to rack up their hours. Sure they wouldn’t.
11 hours Una. Holy cow. I would (I think) stand up and say ‘Arrest me’. Though I do understand how that would be hard to do. I suppose they would try to physically restrain me, and handcuf me and that would be that.
If everyone did it, or 5, 10 or 20 people, the airline would not stand a chance in court.
IMHO.
I completely understand that the stewards on a plane need to be authoritative to keep control, but that’s just rediculus.
June? In summer? And they could not even get a vehicle to the plane to resuply it with water? And I thought the stuck in ice story was bullshit.
Some more…. What is madding about this is that on September 11, 2001 all planes ALL planes where diverted to the nearest airport. Now I’m sure there where a lot of difficulties, but the airports, with all their facilities, somehow managed to handle this.
The plane is stuck on the tarmac/runway? Umm. OK. Maybe it is not safe to move it. Frozen in the ice? Bull. What was the plan? Wait till spring?
Snow too deep? What kind of shape was the runway in to begin with?
Not having the plow trucks, stair trucks and busses to take care of this sounds like pure bull to me. Stair trucks stuck in the ice? Bull.
It’s called work. Improvise. Use the busses from the parking lots, anything. The airport has plows. Big ones and little ones. Use them.
Mercifully, they did have the aircon running, but only enough to keep the heat to a non-fatal level.
Every year I read of stories of people stuck on planes for insane amounts of time - wasn’t there a Canadian flight a year or three back where they were on the plane for 28 hours? Every year there’s a handful of incidents where people are treated worse than animals, and every year the airlines get a pass on it. Every year I ask “how many more times?” Read USA Today’s very recent article about how United fucked two planes of people in Cheyenne, Wyoming recently. The WSJ had a few choice anecdotes this week too. And each year, the airlines get a pass on it. You can’t even just boycott the bad ones, because every airline has a history of Mickey Mouse bullshit like this. Some worse than others, but still. I’ve flown every major airline in the US and Europe, and had a bad experience on all of them.
::snort:: I love it!
I was thinking about Una’s story, and the lady on my plane. . . I certainly understand the fear of arrest, but isn’t there a point where you start faking a medical emergency? Could they (legally) refuse to get medical assistance for someone ostensibly having a heart attack? Could they later arrest you for doing so?
And another thing 
The small under funded county that I live in has things called hot steam pressure washers mounted either on trucks, or pulled on a trailer by a standard ½ ton pick up truck.
They use them to unfreeze culverts that run under the road. These nice guys even do my own driveway culvert.
JFK has never heard of these. OK.
The stair trucks are stuck in the ice. :rolleyes:[sup]10[/sup]
JFK’s tarmacs near the gate are not heated? A-huh. Where is it that they keep their equipment? Out in a field somewhere? Upstate?
WalMart parking lot? What? :smack:
Jet Blue seems to have admitted to a big fuck up. And a lot of it may have been caused by JFK ground controllers. But they shouldn’t just try to shine people on and make excuses about everything stuck in the ice.
I doubt you could be arrested unless you admitted to faking it. Stress can cause reactions that mimic a heart attack, and so long as you stick to your story of “I felt like an elephant was kneeling on my chest, my left arm hurt, I tasted copper” etc. The bad side is, you would be guaranteed to be removed by paramedics, you would be guaranteed to be sent to a hospital, you would be guaranteed paying an insurance deductible which could be rather high, and you would possibly have a few stormtroopers from the Department of Homeland “Security” in your hospital room asking you “when was the last time you burned an American flag, Osama? - oh sorry, I meant Obsidian.”
Trouble is, your ideas make too much sense and you are much too competent to be put to work where we need you the most.
Your solutions have amplified the two things that went wrong:
- Somebody lacked the will to do what needed to be done;
- Somebody was too incompetent to think of what to do.
Sound familiar? Perhaps Michael “Brownie” Brown was the culprit.
FYI, a lot of those planes were diverted to Canadian airports. We accepted 224 planes - 33,000 passengers. It is no small point of pride to Canadians (some small communities, like Gander in Newfoundland - population 10,000 - accommodated 12,000 people for the duration). I’m not sure if you’re making the point that U.S. airports could handle these extreme circumstances, or that all the airports in North America could handle them.
I believe that some people did spend quite a bit of time on planes on 9/11 before they realized that it was going to be an overnight(s) thing.
It’s just that people wouldn’t bitch about sitting a plane for several hours on that day.
I suspect that once they were on the ground, the last thing anybody was worried about doing was keeping the cabin flight-ready.
It’s easy to sit back now and give all these great solutions. In the grand scheme of things 6 hours isn’t all that long. I’ve seen people spend more time then that trying to get office supplies.
The problem for the airlines is everything is a giant bureaucracy. The port authority doesn’t make effort to make solutions easier for airlines. Things like buses and plows aren’t the airlines property they can’t just use them anytime they want. They have to make a request.(like they did in this case). As the airport doesn’t really care about the convenience of Jet Blues customers it’s very hard to expedite them helping JB out.
If Jet Blue tried to solve this problem on there own rather then waiting for the Port authority those people would still be on the planes while JB tried to get the permits necessary to bring outside buses onto the tarmac.
Just because the weather is bad where you take off doesn’t mean it’s that terrible where you land.
While technically the flight crew DOES own your ass while you’re on the airplane the stories coming out of these nightmares are clearly and abuse of that power. It’s just fucking crazy.
Last time this got a lot of publicity, when Northwestern had planes for hours and hours on the runways at Detroit, Congress threatened the airlines with a formal passengers’ bill of rights. The industry whined and promised to do better. They haven’t. It’s time to write down what is and isn’t acceptable behavior.
Part of the problem is the personnel cutbacks, where airlines have few ground personnel and weather people at these locations. For example, the decision to pull planes away from the gates in Detroit (Northwestern’s black eye) was made by people in Texas who were later found to be unfamillar with winter weather patterns in Michigan. So some tech in a remote location, who is seated comfortably at his workstation with access to hot coffee and a toilet, is trying to “do the job” and impress the higher-ups and all that and orders the airplanes out onto the runway “hoping for a break in the weather”. When even the fucking passengers can usually figure out that’s not going to happen.
The pilots can legally refuse to take off, but I don’t think they can refuse to move the airplane when ordered to by their employers unless there is an immediate threat to life and limb. I don’t think the pilots enjoy being trapped on the runways either - eventually, they don’t have food or water either, they’re stuck in their seats too, and they are far outnumbered by the incipient rioters in the back.
And don’t discount the effect of “homeland security” - while in the past it might have been a local decision to pull up a stairway and deplane passengers just about anywhere on the airport NOW it is illegal for unauthorized and unscreened people to be in certain locations. The person who deplanes passengers from a taxiway or runway with the best of intentions could be hauled up on federal charges, and so could those passengers. The people writing and interpreting those rules are not the people sitting in muck and mire for 10+ hours. It’s security run amok, bureacracy run amok, and no reason or common sense in sight.
In other words, it’s the airline industry. I don’t fly that much, but I long ago figured out that planning a trip involving an aeroplane is like russian roulette. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING is loaded against the traveller:
[ul]
[li]Stuck in traffic and missed the flight? Fuck you, you should have left earlier.[/li][li]Arrived on time, but stuck in endless security queues and missed your flight? Fuck you, you should have been at the airport even earlier.[/li][li]Got to the gate on time, but they overbooked the flight? Wait hours (or days) for the next one. Sucks to be you.[/li][li]Arrived on time, but they didn’t fill enough seats to make the flight profitable? It’s cancelled, next time buy more tickets.[/li][li]Everyone’s ready to go, but the plane isn’t there? Well tough shit, that’s your problem not the airline’s. The back of the queue for reticketing is out there in the car park.[/li][li]Bad weather at the takeoff point? At the landing point? At some random airport that’s neither, but which the aircraft you’re supposed to be getting on was scheduled to use 12 hours ago? Take a seat (or a piece of floor, if the seats are all gone) and settle in for a long wait.[/li][li]Made the first leg OK but landed late and missed your connection? Boo hoo, good luck trying to find someone who cares. [/li][li]Pilots on strike? Cabin crew on strike? Check-in staff on strike? Flight controllers on strike? Baggage handlers on strike? People who make the sandwiches on strike? Guess who’s just won a shafting in return for handing over their ticket dollars.[/li][li]Some maintenance chump missed a check and there’s a Boing stuck on the runway with a frozen brake? No more flights for a while, hope you brought a good book.[/li][/ul]
The truly depressing thing is that despite all the shit which is routinely inflicted on people, flying is STILL the most convenient way of making long journeys. Because let’s face it, it’s not as if it’s totally unheard of for people to get stuck in 11-hour traffic jams, or on trains, or ships. Even if you allow three months to **walk ** from New York to Chicago, you might still pick up an ingrown toenail or heatstroke or whatever and miss Mom’s birthday. You just can’t win. But still, there’s no need for the fuckers to rub salt into the wound.
You want some more anecdotes of what I personally experienced in the last 12 months?
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Delta pulled us up to the gate in Atlanta right on time (no, really!) and we sat. With the jetway unmanned. And sat. And sat. The ground crew was there, unloading all the bags, and they serviced the plane. But no one moved the jetway to the door. For 35 fucking minutes we sat on an arriving flight and no one moved the jetway the dozen feet so they could unload. The pilot kept saying "Um…I don’t know why no one is letting us disembark. I can’t get ahold of anyone. :eek: At the busiest fucking airport in the world, at Delta’s own hub, the pilot of an arriving flight can’t get anyone? As a result, several people missed their connection because no one could waddle their ass down to move the jetway a dozen feet.
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I’m sitting there at the airport and my phone rings. It’s Fierra, telling me that the Delta website says the flight is cancelled. So I go up and tell the lady at the counter that I want to be booked on the next flight. She starts telling me that it’s going to cost me X dollars, and I say “Why? Delta canceled the flight?” She flat-out denies it, then calls me a liar and tells me to “sit down”. So I go down the long concourse and find the customer service desk. They tippity-tap into their computer, and tell me it’s lies, all lies, the flight is not canceled at all. I ask them why their website says it is, and I get a response of “Oh, you can never trust the website.” Fierra calls on my bluetooth headset then, and tells me she’s on the phone to Delta right there, and she says that the flight is canceled and I’m booked on another flight - because she, Fierra, did it. I report this to the lady at Delta customer service, who says “I don’t know what you’re trying to pull (!?) but this flight is not canceled, and spreading rumors about a flight could be dangerous.” I tell her to fuck off, and Fierra tells me where my new flight is. So I go to the new gate, and they are unaware that a flight is coming in there, that it’s leaving for my destination, etc. Finally, a plane pulls up, and the workers stand there saying “what flight is that?” Another hour later, and finally, reluctantly, Delta at the airport announces that the first flight is canceled and that the new flight is, surprise, right where the website said it was. In a drama of 3 hours in length, not one single person at Delta’s hub could find the information that had been readily available by web and by phone - no, to be more correct, they categorically refused to even check up on it, because I was obviously one of those “problem passengers” and therefore scum.
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On an American flight, I’m sitting in First Class. I hear the stewardesses talking furtively. “They didn’t service the plane! We have no ice and nothing except some bottled water.” says one. The other one says “tell the pilot that we need to cancel service because there’s turbulence”. Sure enough, as soon as we take off, the pilot gets on and lies to the entire plane, telling us that “because air traffic control says it could be rough, I’m going to have the flight attendants hold off on service. If the air smooths out, we’ll get drinks to you.” Of course, the flight attendants sat with their asses superglued to their seats the whole flight, and for 3 hours there wasn’t even water available (they passed out the bottled water that they had to us in First, but the poor sods in Economy got squat).
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Sitting on the tarmac in Atlanta, again - this time, it was only for 3 hours total. But I was freaking out - not visibly, but inside. Both the flight attendants and the pilot say we can use our cell phones (pretty standard when you’re on the ground), and I’m talking to Fierra the whole time, very thankful for my 8-hour battery. This time, they’re passing out water freely, but it’s hot - more than 90 F by my guess. People are getting ill. She says that the Delta people on the phone not only say that our flight is cancelled (if so, why are we still sitting on the fucking tarmac???) but that the person on the phone from Delta told her that IT IS AGAINST FEDERAL LAW TO USE YOUR CELL PHONE ON A PLANE AT ANY TIME and that I WOULD BE ARRESTED. Which, of course, is an absolute lie. But this is Delta’s second-line support person saying this, officially. I tell the stewardess that Delta says the flight is canceled, and ask why we aren’t going back to the gate? She says “um, we don’t have any gates. I don’t know when they’ll let us go back.” It turns out, it takes 2 additional hours to simply find an open gate. The whole time, of course, I can see scads of open gates, some which were never filled the whole time we were there.
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We’re just about to get onto the runway, when I notice the plane is suddenly turning around, and heading back to the gate. Why? According to the pilot “we have an air traffic control hold, sorry”. But I’m sitting near the back, and hear a stewardess say to the other “oh my God, they forgot to fuel us!” Sure enough, as soon as we pull up to the gate, the fuel truck comes, pumps for about 5 minutes, then, after another hour delay, we get to leave.
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By a rough count, on US Air’s jets last summer, out of 14 flight legs, 4 of them were delayed, sitting us on the ground, due to “maintenance problems”. What sort of confidence does that build in you?
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It’s Thursday night. Continental screws me by canceling a flight due to maintenance - again, refusing to tell anyone about it, so I have to find out when Fierra calls me. I call Continental customer service, knowing that talking to the idiots at the airport is useless, since they’re still denying that the flight is canceled. The customer service person says that there are no other flights that night, and I’ll have to stay overnight. I say “since this is maintenance, aren’t you legally supposed to give me a hotel?” and the response is “since 9/11, we don’t legally have to do anything.” But one thing they will do is book me on the first available flight - not Friday morning the next day, oh no, but Sunday. Fuck that shit, and thankfully, since I’m traveling on business and in effect can spend anything I want to, I cancel my ticket, take the $500 hit, and just buy another one right there on Delta. Continental is completely unapologetic about it, and says “look, we offered you a flight back and you refused. If you refuse our flights, we can’t help you.” “Um, the flight back means I have to stay here 2.5 extra days, which you’re not paying for.” and the rep actually says “that’s not my problem.”
I could post a lot more but there’s no point. I could make a whole thread about TSA and security idiocy, but there’s no point either. What I’m recounting above is the real face of airline travel today, that people like me who travel every two weeks see. Creaky 727s and MD80’s which are down for maintenance more times than should be legal, flight crews that are MIA, flight attendants who pretty much openly hate the passengers and life in general, pilots who we trust our lives to who lie to us openly and unashamedly, and customer service whose only real purpose is loss prevention for the company. It’s been worse every single year, and with seats packed to capacity and so many airlines operating under bankruptcy protection, it’s only going to get worse.
Jesus, Una, next time i get annoyed because boarding is delayed by 15 minutes, i’ll think of your stories and console myself that things could be worse.
I must have been a lucky airline passenger, because i can barely recall anything as awful as those stories. Admittedly, i don’t fly anywhere near as often as you, but i’ve done quite a few legs of domestic travel in the six years or so that i’ve been in the US, and for the most part things have gone pretty smoothly.
I know that some people will probably now come out with some awful stories about them, but the airline i fly most often, United, has always (knock wood) been really good. I can barely remember any delays (and the ones i do remember were generally caused by weather); i’ve never had a cancellation; and the whole experience of flying has generally been fairly dull and painless. Maybe i’ve just been lucky, and probability is about to bite me on the ass.
There was an article on Nightline last night about renewed moves for a passengers’ bill of rights, but as usual there will be plenty of resistance from the airlines. Just remember that, every time you buy a ticket, part of the money you pay is added to a $50 million war chest used by the airlines to lobby against your interests as a passenger and a customer.