Oh, you "poor" Americans

The BBQ Pit
21

[QUOTE=uglybeech]
Who, btw, on the pampered scale, are pikers compared to the Western Europeans (what with their free secondary education, universal healthcare, six week vacations and so on).
[/QUOTE]

Well, “free” as in “even our more right-wing governments keep taxes at a level that can pay for all of this”, yes. You do know that gas is about six bucks a gallon over here? (More like $7.90 for an English gallon.) And VAT (our equivalent of sales tax) is 17.5%?

Mind you, ever since going self-employed for a few years, I find I barely know what to do with six weeks off a year. But the extra few weeks off probably finds itself reflected in the amount of “stuff” that we Brits don’t consider part of a basically acceptable lifestyle, I mean, there was a thread recently about how more people could take up flying if they wanted, and one poster seriously proposed some lifestyle savings “people” could afford, that added up to about a kilobuck per month. I personally don’t spend that much on luxuries…

22

On the one hand, you make a very good point, MrDibble. On the other hand, as I understand it, there’s the material conditions of poverty (which you address very well), and then there’s the psychological perception of poverty. The latter is based to a large degree on relative wealth. Someone who lives in a very poor society in which they never encounter other folks with a lot of material wealth will perceive herself as less poor than someone with modest wealth who lives in an extremely affluent society. It ties into the human need for status.

So give folks a break if they’re pretty well-off but perceive themselves as poor: it’s only human.

Daniel

23

[Quote=MrDibble]
I meant those who consider having only a 2-bed a/c apartment, 20" TV, dialup and basic cable, with only 1 car, and meat at only 1 meal, to be “poverty”
[/Quote]
.

Well, those are exactly my circumstances (except I’ve at least got broadband) and I don’t consider myself to be living in poverty. I can even afford a bottle of decent Scotch occasionally. Glad we could straighten that out.

24

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
This thread is making me sick.

“Boo-hoo! I can only afford a two-bedroom apartment for myself”
“Boo-hoo! if you add in my cable and broadband costs, I’m living beyond my $20 000 income. Thank god for credit cards”
“Boo-hoo! My 30MPG car needs filling up twice a week”

You have no fucking clue what poverty is, do you? You pampered children!
Poverty is a one-room (NOT 1 bedroom, 1 room) tin shack for a family of 9. No toilet.
Poverty is walking 10km to work because you can’t afford the $0.20 for the bus
Poverty is having your one good meal for the day be the soup and bread you get at school.

And don’t give me shit about cost-of-living differences, either, I’m talking about the actual conditions poor people live in. “Electricity? Sewerage? Indoor running water? TV? Internet? Meat? Doctor? Dentistry? What’s that?”
Christ, I know of people who make $10 a day at hard physical graft and they are grateful.
[/QUOTE]

All of this is well and good, but wouldn’t you certainly agree that there are degrees of poverty?

Have you ever been to a housing project? Many of these are mini-war zones, full of violence and neglect. Yes, you have electricity but no heat. Or you have running water, but the pipes are so old that the water comes out dirty (in some case, contaminated by sewage). You have a roof over your head but chunks of plaster regularly crash down on you. Yes, your children go to school, but they have no textbooks and the teachers are just biding their time before they can transfer to a better school.

I lived in low-income housing when I lived in NJ. It wasn’t a third-world slum…there weren’t people dying in the gutters from starvation…but there were tons of poor people who lived alongside me. They certainly weren’t middle-class. What else do you call them?

One can be poor and still quite fortunate. They aren’t mutually exclusive.

I agree with the overall jist of your post, but be careful: there are lots of people blessed with electricity and running water and even (gasp!) a luxury like a TV who are indeed poor. Just check out the documentary Dark Days if you don’t believe me.
(I tried to find an instance of someone whining about their poverty in the way you’re talking about, and I couldn’t find one)

25

[QUOTE=Pjen]

In America, to be poor is a stigma. In a country which celebrates individuality and the goal of giving everyone an equal opportunity to make it big, those in poverty are often blamed for their own situation.
[/QUOTE]

And there’s a reason for this attitude. Unlike Europe, where there are are thousands of years of tradition and social stratification, and inherited wealth and poverty, the United States is a very new nation, with very little of that kind of thing, relative to elsewhere.

In other words, the popular perception is that everyone started off more or less equal here, and those who were willing to work hard, and make the proper choices succeeded, while those who were lazy and/or made poor choices did not. There has always been the perception that there is enough opportunity to go around, and if you don’t take advantage of it, then it’s your problem.

Combine that with the myriad of Horatio Alger type stories and “rags to riches” tales that most Americans can tell about relatives and friends, and it’s no wonder that the poor in America are somewhat stigmatized.

26

Crap. That previous burundi post was me. Sorry!
Daniel

27

[QUOTE=bump]
And there’s a reason for this attitude. Unlike Europe, where there are are thousands of years of tradition and social stratification, and inherited wealth and poverty, the United States is a very new nation, with very little of that kind of thing, relative to elsewhere.

In other words, the popular perception is that everyone started off more or less equal here, and those who were willing to work hard, and make the proper choices succeeded, while those who were lazy and/or made poor choices did not. There has always been the perception that there is enough opportunity to go around, and if you don’t take advantage of it, then it’s your problem.

Combine that with the myriad of Horatio Alger type stories and “rags to riches” tales that most Americans can tell about relatives and friends, and it’s no wonder that the poor in America are somewhat stigmatized.
[/QUOTE]

We’re also quite consumer-driven as a society. I don’t know about other places, but in the US, we’re inculcated (consciously or unconsciously) with the idea that not having certain things makes one a loser. Almost every American teenage boy has faced this dilemma, when it comes to having a car.

That doesn’t excuse materialistic individuals, but people can be hardly blamed for exaggerating their poverty when, wherever you turn, there’s a commercial shouting at you that you MUST HAVE THIS SHINY NEW OBJECT RIGHT NOW!!!

28

MrDibble, I think plenty of us recognize true poverty. True Poverty would mean missing meals, having no heat and electricity. It might mean makeshift housing. That thread was not talking about true poverty, it was talking about the US Poverty line. The level below which we as a country would prefer nobody had to live at.
Why would it upset you enough to start this thread?

Jim

29

[QUOTE=thelurkinghorror]
I’m not a big fan of one-upmanship of suffering.
[/quote]

and

One of these things is not like the other.

30

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
This thread

You have no fucking clue what poverty is, do you? You pampered children!
Poverty is a one-room (NOT 1 bedroom, 1 room) tin shack for a family of 9. No toilet.
Poverty is walking 10km to work because you can’t afford the $0.20 for the bus
Poverty is having your one good meal for the day be the soup and bread you get at school.

And don’t give me shit about cost-of-living differences, either, I’m talking about the actual conditions poor people live in. “Electricity? Sewerage? Indoor running water? TV? Internet? Meat? Doctor? Dentistry? What’s that?”
Christ, I know of people who make $10 a day at hard physical graft and they are grateful.
[/QUOTE]

Well… poverty and the conception of it is relative. Out of curiosity why is South Africa so poor per your description of the rate of pay and lack of services? Natural resource wise you’re one of the richest countries relative to your population. Why such intense poverty? I thought you guys were doing pretty well overall?

31

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
This thread is making me sick.

“Boo-hoo! I can only afford a two-bedroom apartment for myself”
“Boo-hoo! if you add in my cable and broadband costs, I’m living beyond my $20 000 income. Thank god for credit cards”
“Boo-hoo! My 30MPG car needs filling up twice a week”

You have no fucking clue what poverty is, do you? You pampered children!
Poverty is a one-room (NOT 1 bedroom, 1 room) tin shack for a family of 9. No toilet.
Poverty is walking 10km to work because you can’t afford the $0.20 for the bus
Poverty is having your one good meal for the day be the soup and bread you get at school.

And don’t give me shit about cost-of-living differences, either, I’m talking about the actual conditions poor people live in. “Electricity? Sewerage? Indoor running water? TV? Internet? Meat? Doctor? Dentistry? What’s that?”
Christ, I know of people who make $10 a day at hard physical graft and they are grateful.
[/QUOTE]
I guess what it boils doen to is that people are no damned good.

Didn’t we already know that?

32

[QUOTE=astro]
Well… poverty and the conception of it is relative. Out of curiosity why is South Africa so poor per your description of the rate of pay and lack of services? Natural resource wise you’re one of the richest countries relative to your population. Why such intense poverty? I thought you guys were doing pretty well overall?
[/QUOTE]

I am not an economist, and I certainly don’t mean to speak on behalf of MrDibble, but in my view the poverty problem in SA is complex. Colonisation and the long tail effects of apartheid (country’s “riches” in the hands of a minority, Bantustans etc), together with overpopulation (46.9 million compared with next door neighbour Botswana of 1.5 million) and post 1994 rapid urbanisation, the huge skills shortage, all have culminated in a high unemployment rate (anything between 28% and 40%). Official stats set our “below the poverty line” percentage at 48.5%.

This country might be the top producer of gold, platinum, chromium, vanadium, etc, but there can only be so many mines, and so many shovels. Once the number of people outstrip the number of shovels, you have an imbalance.

33

[QUOTE=monstro]
All of this is well and good, but wouldn’t you certainly agree that there are degrees of poverty?
[/QUOTE]

Of course I would. I was never arguing that there is no poverty in the US (see my remark above about rural Mississippi, for ex.), just that what was being mostly being described in that thread was so far removed from real poverty as to be laughable.
They were arguing about whether the statistical poverty level of ~$18000/4 people would let you rent a 3-bed apartment in this or that city, while still letting you commute in a car. That’s not poverty. Here, that’s middle class.

[QUOTE=monstro]

Have you ever been to a housing project?
[/QUOTE]

Google “Cape Flats” and “gang warfare” sometime. It’s where I grew up.

[QUOTE=monstro]

Many of these are mini-war zones, full of violence and neglect. Yes, you have electricity but no heat. Or you have running water, but the pipes are so old that the water comes out dirty (in some case, contaminated by sewage). You have a roof over your head but chunks of plaster regularly crash down on you. Yes, your children go to school, but they have no textbooks and the teachers are just biding their time before they can transfer to a better school.

I lived in low-income housing when I lived in NJ. It wasn’t a third-world slum…there weren’t people dying in the gutters from starvation…but there were tons of poor people who lived alongside me. They certainly weren’t middle-class. What else do you call them?

[/QUOTE]

Damn poor is what I’d call them. And if they posted about those sort of living conditions here, I’d have only sympathy for them, not scorn.

[QUOTE=monstro]

(I tried to find an instance of someone whining about their poverty in the way you’re talking about, and I couldn’t find one)
[/QUOTE]

It was my accumulated impression from reading the whole thread up to the point I posted. No one person was quoted (that’s why I used the paraphrasing quotation marks rather than a direct-quoting code block), but I certainly got the impression that some people in that thread considered e.g. not being able to gas up their car to be poverty. Reminded me of that line about not having any shoes.

34

[QUOTE=David Simmons]
I guess what it boils doen to is that people are no damned good.

Didn’t we already know that?
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, really! I was thinking that if you only make $10 a day at “hard, physical graft”, then you must be one sorry-ass crook!

35

[QUOTE=burundi]
On the one hand, you make a very good point, MrDibble. On the other hand, as I understand it, there’s the material conditions of poverty (which you address very well), and then there’s the psychological perception of poverty. The latter is based to a large degree on relative wealth. Someone who lives in a very poor society in which they never encounter other folks with a lot of material wealth will perceive herself as less poor than someone with modest wealth who lives in an extremely affluent society. It ties into the human need for status.

So give folks a break if they’re pretty well-off but perceive themselves as poor: it’s only human.

Daniel
[/QUOTE]

Yup. The term I believe is “relative deprivation”.

No doubt the lot of us are better off in many material ways than a King in Dark Ages Europe; it doesn’t mean that we feel as rich as kings.

That’s because we tend to judge our circumstances by what we see around us. If we are at the bottom of the heap in a rich society, we will perceive ourselves as “poor” even though in point of fact in absolute terms we are not.

In short, “poverty” has both a subjective and an objective element to it. If the OP is complaining that people are confusing the two, that is fair enough; however, if the OP is complaining that subjective feelings of relative poverty are illigitimate, he or she is up against a basic fact of human nature.

36

[QUOTE=David Simmons]
I guess what it boils doen to is that people are no damned good.

Didn’t we already know that?
[/QUOTE]

Sometimes it need saying again.

[QUOTE=astro]
Well… poverty and the conception of it is relative. Out of curiosity why is South Africa so poor per your description of the rate of pay and lack of services? Natural resource wise you’re one of the richest countries relative to your population. Why such intense poverty? I thought you guys were doing pretty well overall?
[/QUOTE]

My honey-loving friend’s already covered this quite well (I love that shovels illustration), but I’d also like to add that the gap between rich and poor is quite huge, so while I live 5 minutes drive from a shantytown with open sewers, I also live 5 minutes away from a suburb that is as tony as Beverly Hills. Just because there are very poor people doesn’t mean *everyone *is poor.

Other factors - a lot of that mineral wealth is going into foreign pockets, we don’t do as much beneficiation as we should, and the skills brain drain, both pre- and post-apartheid. We’ve produced excellent doctors, lawyers, entrepeneurs, scientists, teachers. They’re just all in Australia, Canada, the UK…

37

[QUOTE=Malthus]
Yif the OP is complaining that subjective feelings of relative poverty are illigitimate, he or she is up against a basic fact of human nature.
[/QUOTE]

Of course, no-one’s ever pitted an aspect of human nature before.

38

MrDibble, no one in that thread was crying “woe is me” or citing poverty. No one was saying that the poverty line should factor in anything more than cost of basic necessities. So I’m still scratching my head over the inspiration of your rant.

You say in your post here:

This sounds like a definition of poverty to me. From the sound of the above, if you’re living in a one bedroom apt, take public transit to work, and have more than one good meal of day–then you ain’t poor. But you obviously disagree with this, based on your later posts. So are you not demonstrating the same equivocation–to a lesser extent–that you’re rallying against? If poverty isn’t limited eating dirt or walking 10km to work, what is it?

It’s perfectly alright for folks to define poverty to a level that is not restricted to the bottomest-bottom of all existing societies. Would you agree or disagree with this statement?

39

[QUOTE=monstro]
We’re also quite consumer-driven as a society. I don’t know about other places, but in the US, we’re inculcated (consciously or unconsciously) with the idea that not having certain things makes one a loser. Almost every American teenage boy has faced this dilemma, when it comes to having a car.

That doesn’t excuse materialistic individuals, but people can be hardly blamed for exaggerating their poverty when, wherever you turn, there’s a commercial shouting at you that you MUST HAVE THIS SHINY NEW OBJECT RIGHT NOW!!!
[/QUOTE]

(my bolding)
Oh, but they can. Just because they are sheeple doesn’t absolve them from getting a sense of perspective.

40

[QUOTE=monstro]
MrDibble, no one in that thread was crying “woe is me” or citing poverty. No one was saying that the poverty line should factor in anything more than cost of basic necessities. So I’m still scratching my head over the inspiration of your rant.
[/QUOTE]

My inspiration was my general impression, not any one person. I’ve already said that .

[QUOTE=monstro]
This sounds like a definition of poverty to me.
[/QUOTE]

No, it’s emotional rhetoric. Did you mistake this forum for GD?

[QUOTE=monstro]

It’s perfectly alright for folks to define poverty to a level that is not restricted to the bottomest-bottom of all existing societies. Would you agree or disagree with this statement?
[/QUOTE]

Yes.

I just disagree with the level people in that thread were setting it at. I was choosing to disagree rather more forcefully than I felt GD would allow. Hence this thread.

I could factor in a lot of outside influences like Oprah shows on poor Americans and other previous threads on the Dope where people were all “woe is me 'cus gas is, like, $3.50”, but that thread was the one that finally motivated me.