The National Reich Church was undoubtedly Christian.
Hans Kerrl specifically endorsed the Apostle’s Creed as necessary for Christianity, rather than the Fuhrer.
Allan Bullock and Michael Phayer have both done significant research demonstrating the link between Naziism and the establishment of unified Christianity.
Even the OSS was aware of a Nazi plot to subsume all other religions in the name of Christ.
In fact, the Reich placed a special barracks at Dachau to allow clergy to watch the systematic extermination of all others except them.
The Reich also ordained thousands of Catholic priests in Poland.
Hitler himself said that Catholic teachings, taken to their ultimate conclusion, would mean “the systematic cultivation of human excellence.”
…oh wait. The exact OPPOSITE of all those things are true. The OPPOSITE.
No, you haven’t. You’ve presented a list of possible tombstone decorations that includes multiple purely secular symbols, and some collar tabs. Neither of those are anything *like *evidence for your position.
Similarly, the Star of David is a symbol, but not a religious symbol.
The silliness is all on your side, citing this list of symbols as “evidence” that the symbols on the list are “religious symbols”. I’m merely pointing out that it isn’t evidence of anything.
It isn’t a “diversion”, as I (like you!) think that arguing atheism is “a religion” is nonsense. However, you are committing a similar form of nonsense in this thread, using exactly the same types of arguments as those who would argue that having athiest chaplains means athiests think atheism is a religion!
Just think about it for a second. If you had atheist chaplains, they would presumably have insignia, and that insignia presumably would have a symbol on it. The atheist symbol, no doubt.
The irony of you bringing up that “athiest chaplain” thread to support your argument that having a star of david of a chaplain’s insignia is “proof” that the star is a “religious symbol”, is overwhelming. By your own logic, that would make the atheist symbol a “religious symbol” and atheism a “religion”, which we both agree is silly.
If I’m reading it correctly, Czar is actually arguing that Jewish tradition and practice are irrelevant in the face of the US government making a list and calling the Magen David a religious symbol. Evidently the US government overrules Jews and Judaism when it comes to what we believe, practice, and what symbolism we use? Of course, the list doesn’t say that the Magen David is a religious symbol, after all, and it’s got atheists on it, which Czar has zero cogent responses to.
When we buried my father in a military cemetery a couple of years ago, they asked us which symbol we wanted on his gravestone, as well as for a short saying or quote (there was some character limit). We chose one of the variants of the cross and the words “Thank You Jesus”, because that’s what he undoubtedly would have wanted. But we could have instead chosen the Star of David, or a menorah, or anything else on that list, even though Dad never had any particular connection to Judaism. The symbols aren’t tied inextricably to the soldier’s faith; they’re just tied to what the next of kin chooses. Now, it happens that in our culture, a lot of people happen to like having religious symbols on grave monuments, and so the VA provides a lot of those among the options to choose from, but if you don’t want a religious symbol, they offer a few options of non-religious symbols, too.
I agree, since I started with a question about whether the Holocaust Memorial is constitutional, and immediately exploded into a completely different debate. What I said at the start was that I don’t think religious symbols on government property are unconstitutional, but if they are then the Holocaust Memorial in Ohio is clearly unconstitutional, and so are many others.
Of course, among those who have made it their purpose in life to harass state and local governments because on religious symbols, statues, and so forth, most would shy away from attacking a Holocaust Memorial. Hence the claim that the Star of David is both a cultural and a religious symbol. But obviously that excuse would not convince the judges who have outlawed other religious symbols on government property. Images that involve a cross or other Christian imagery have cultural significance for many ethnic groups, and doubtlessly imagery from other religions has cultural significance for many groups.
And simply for the record, I’ve been an atheist since I was 8 years old, and I self-identify as a Jew and had a pretty nifty golden Magen David necklace when I was a teen. Yes, there were options like Torah scroll necklaces, but I didn’t want a religious symbol.
Even if it is religious, in this case, as an atheist, let them have it. The Jewish people have suffered enough, no point quibbling over this little detail
Oh yeah? Let’s see a cite for this claim. :dubious:
AGAIN, the Nazis were after the Jews based on race. You didn’t have to be a practicing Jew, indeed, you didn’t have to actually be “Jewish” necessarily – if you had Jewish ancestry, that’s all that mattered. Hell, you could be the frigging Pope, but if you had a Jewish grandparent, that was enough, as far as the Nazis were concerned.
The Ohio Holocaust Memorial’s $1.8 million cost is privately funded. The state is paying only for site preparation.
As for commemorating a “European event”, a lot of Americans were involved in “events” in Europe in WWII, including this man.
And the Holocaust is far from the only “European event” to be the subject of memorials in the United States. For example, there are multiple U.S. memorials recognizing the Armenian genocide, which I think is also a good thing.
And again I ask, what would be considered evidence for my position that the Star of David is both a tribal symbol for some and a religious symbol for others(which seem to include the U.S. Government-the ones that supposedly shouldn’t allow religious symbols to be used this way.)? I’m tired of playing the “No-that’s not it” game-Just tell me what would qualify.
I mean, seriously, did you really think that the U.S. government is not just an authority on Jewish culture and religion, but that it speaks for Jews on matters of culture and religion?
I would wager that Telushkin would be a good jumping off point for you, if you can’t accept the unanimous position of pretty much every Jew who posted in this thread. You might also have noticed that the old saw, “two Jews, three opinions,” and ideally you comprehend what it means that we’re all in agreement.
Again, just because some courts repeat the silliness doesn’t make it less silly.
Yes, Magen David is a Jewish symbol. No, Magen David is not a “sacred (LOL) religious symbol”. That’s just stupid. One of the reasons that Magen David was chosen by the Zionist movement and is on the flag of Israel is that it is explicitly NOT a religious symbol. Zionists at the time were overwhelmingly secular.
For the purpose of this exercise, if the courts decide that it is a religious symbol, then it is legally a religious symbol when it comes to using it on public land even if every freakin’ rabbi in the whole world thinks otherwise.