That all sounds really swell, London_Calling, and I don’t mean to come across as argumentative, but what about the Turks, Northern Irish, Basques, Corsicans, Gypsies . . . ? I’ve lived outside of my home country for almost a decade, and what I’ve learned from the experience is that underneath this Euro-Disney facade, the tensions and hostilities of centuries are constantly bubbling just underneath the surface. I guess I was trying to be funny, unsuccessfully, but you ought to realize that I haven’t stated one thing in this thread that hasn’t been told directly to me by (educated, well-traveled) Europeans. Europeans really change their attitudes after they’ve had a few drinks, I can tell you that. I am more inclined to believe yojimbo–these things aren’t spoken of, not because they don’t exist, but rather because they’re still too serious to be a topic for jokes or casual conversation.
I can tell you that educated intelligent Dutchmen would not refer to Germans as Nazis these days. Which is not to say it doesn’t happen: I just doubt the intelligence of your friends.
OK, this is a bit of a nit-picking mini-hijack, but I still can’t get it out of my head - JosephFinn, before I agree to go marching anywhere with the “Stone of St. Andrews”, I really would like to know what it is. Please.
Big limestone rock that the British carried off in some war a few centuries back. It sat under the coronation throne in Westminster Cathedral for centuries as a sign of British soveriegnty over Scotland, but was returned within the last couple of years. Certain legends have it that the stone came over from Ireland.
I found a nice history and summary of legends of the Stone of St. Andrew, also known in Britain as the “Coronation Stone,” here:
http://www.biblemysteries.com/library/liafail/
It also has a very amusing section on Elizabeth I, relating to the liberation of the stone in 1950 before it was returned to the British. Note my bolding of the amusing part:
The Stone was evidently repaired by the high-jackers with doweling and cement. Before marrying the two pieces together, a copy of the SCOTTISH DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE was placed between them. Perhaps, then, this act satisfied Scottish patriotism which cried out for the Stone’s restoration to Scone. Actually, the arguments presented in the petition to the Scottish Daily Express are invalid. The TREATY OF NORTHAMPTON, referred to in the petition, was negotiated between Edward III. of England and Robert, King of the Scots – NOT between the countries of England and Scotland. And, since the rights of BOTH MONARCHES later became vested in Queen Elizabeth II. (the Queen of the UNITED KINGDOM), no transfer of title between them can make a bit of difference today! THE OWNERSHIP OF THE STONE OF DESTINY OR LIA FAIL IS INCONTESTABLE. It belongs to the heirs and descendants of Queen Elizabeth II. who are able to trace their line from both Edward III. of England and Robert, King of the Scots.
Uh, yeah. Sure…
Zarathustra - One of the lessons I learnt as a young man and dealing with alcohol was never to argue with girlfriends, or respond to them, when drunk. None of us are at our most rational, nor do we listen well under the influence. I got fed up fairly quickly of saying things I regretted the following morning. And that’s with someone I cared about – it would seem a lot of people are capable of saying damn stupid stuff when drunk.
Also, get a warm, quiet, family black man drunk in Tennessee and ask him about his life or a Southerner drunk and as him about Yankees. Put a couple of bottles of wine in a New Yorker and ask them about the Bible Belt or a farmer drunk and ask him about gays and California. Ask a drunk Native American about his lands. You might find what you describe to not be only a European experience. It is an unpleasant aspect of tribal and / or unreasonable base human nature that can become manifest when drunk. Visit any Emergency room on a Saturday night – anywhere – and check it out.
But, somehow, when we wake up the following morning, society is still intact and we get on with our rational, fair minded, intellect driven lives. Hopefully.
So, in my view using the reactionary comments of drunks to judge how Europe works might not be the most effective way of understanding the strengths and merits of European society.
Where is it outside the States that you’ve lived for a decade ?
The Stone of Scone, or Stone of Destiny, then? Honestly, I have never heard it called the Stone of St Andrew before, and I am Scottish, and used to live in St. Andrews; it occurred to me that you might have a good traditionally-important-stone story that I hadn’t encountered, and I thought it would be interesting to know.
From what I understand, Puerto Rico and the Philippines have been debating on joining for a long time. One of them is under territorial protection but the hold up is that the current leaders want their cake and to eat it also.
In short, they like being in power – something they would not be if they join the US, and they enjoy the windfall of American tourist and trade dollars but don’t want the laws – especially labor laws – and strict manufacturing regulations.
I am from planet Alderan (yes! there really is an Alderan) in the Thermidipian-17 Nebula. I often hack into your Internet and watch all of your TV broadcasts. By the way, that Cecil character wouldn’t even pass for a pseudo-intellectual around here!
Anyhow, I must say that your country rocks. As a matter of fact we are thinking of beaming you here and having you join our planet…
They are spoken of , they’re even joked about over here . My point was that there is a world of difference between talking about them IRL where you can have a full understanding of what somebody means by tone , expression etc. and light hearted remark about a situation that has torn people’s lives apart made on a internet message board .
If you want to have a serious and frank discussion about any subject open a thread and if people find it interesting they will respond (That would work better if you imagine the last line as the voice from Field of Dreams) .
We say over here that Religion and Politics should not be brought up while drinking . If I had of heeded that advise when I was younger I would have had a easier time of things .
laughs hysterically at the thought of Quebec joining the US
Not even in a top 100 list, guys. I live here and all half the population thinks about is how they’re losing their French culture and language and how they should be their own country, Canada’s too opressive to hold us.
Well, we have Alaska, where in a chunk of the population has been rabble rousing for some years about either (a) becoming an independent nation, (b) joining with Canada, or © joining with Russia. That’s mainly because American laws will not let them decimate their forests in lumbering, fish their rivers empty commercially nor develop and run industries which can pollute the Alaskan wilderness environment.
Mexico, minus the corrupt government, probably would eagerly join the US. However, there is too much at stake for those in power there now to allow that, plus Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas would suddenly be cut off from being able to pay ‘Illegals’ below legal wages and they don’t want that.
I say annex Puerto Rico. The effects will be far-reaching, not least on the US National baseball team.
I don’t believe anyone mentioned Quebec as a candidate. Why would they?
Of course all the examples you give are applicable as well, and I’m certainly not judging European society in any way–I thought the OP would make it clear that I was speaking with tongue in cheek. I have a little bit of an impulse to test people’s repressed opinions or feelings, maybe with the subconcious belief that “repressing” is unhealthy. But of course, so is a Saturday night knife fight. As yojimbo said, it depends on the context; for example, I would often joke around with my black or Mexican coworkers and even share a few “racist” jokes with them in a kidding sort of way (and believe me, they’d get the better of me with jokes of their own), but I’d never dream of repeating them on an anonymous message board; so, point well taken.
It’s just as well that we keep a lid on some potentially violent feelings. But I think that an outlet needs to be found somewhere, and better to have a few rowdy football rallies than Nuremburg rallies, am I right? All the same, I’d say that we need to recognize these violent passions for what they are and consciously channel them into constructive, or at least non-destructive, outlets. It seems to me to take a little bit of hubris to claim that we’ve somehow radically changed our natures over the past sixty years. And to state that only uneducated or low-class people have such passions strikes me as (sorry) rather self-delusional and dangerous.
BTW, I lived for eight years in Hong Kong, China, and Taiwan.
Zarathustra
I always though Alaska should be a part of Canada, I am sure if they applied, filled out the proper forms, and offered the required sacrifices we’d take them.
And we would want to join the U.S. because your country is the greatest in the world…right?
(insert profanity of your choice here)
Not sure where I said that, best I can come up with is a reference I made to “intellect”. If that’s what you are referring to then let me correct a misunderstanding. “Intellect” in that context and sense meant “powers of reasoning” - nothing to do with elitism, just the ability of all people to employ their respective cognizant powers rationally in the cold light of the following sober morning.
Well, someone here “doubts the intelligence” of my friends. Maybe not you–I was speaking in the context of the overall conversation. But you did imply that nationalism is “more appropriate for an unsophisticated, teenage, inexperienced and naïve individual and has little resonance in the world we all now live in”, and you did dismiss problems of nationalism as something that “we all dealt with . . . a long time ago.” I’m not making any judgements, just saying that this belief might very well turn around and bite y’all in the ass one day. The gods seem to sit up and pay attention when people go around declaring “peace in our time” . . .
hmmm… if we join, do we get free guns?
Pardon me, but BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You are so high if you believe that tripe.
We took The Philippines as a colonial trophy after the Spanish-American War. We promised the Filipinos their freedom, but double-crossed them, leading to a native rebellion led by Emilio Aguinaldo. We finally gave them their independence in 1946, but there has always been a smoldering resentment of the US there. Puerto Rico is another war trophy we colonized. It’s also insulting to folks from other countries to think that they are eager to abandon their national sovereignty and join the US.
National stereotypes are, of course, crude and not really applicable to the real world, and are born from ignorance of how people behave. I’ve travelled to Europe several times, and people in Western Europe wear suits and conduct business just like folks in Canada and the US do. The Dutch don’t wear clogs, the French don’t wear berets and pencil-thin moustaches, and Germans these days are pretty pacifist. Based on the sampling of men I’ve had in Europe,however, I will say that European gay men tend to be outstanding in the sack. 
People are complicated and too diverse to fit the narrow strictures of doubtful national characteristics. It’s like saying all Americans wear ten-gallon hats, own guns, and eat hamburgers.
On the other hand, I think London_Calling is being a tad smug. Certainly it was only half a century since WWII tore Europe apart, and in the East, we’ve seen ethnic hatred and concentration camps in just the past few years. The Serbs haven’t yet acquired “the ability of all people to employ their respective cognizant powers rationally in the cold light of the following sober morning.” And I notice that Africans in Italy and Algerians in France aren’t exactly embraced, either.