Yes, hundreds. And the number of innocent people saved? Millions. It’s not downplaying what happened to note that, even if every single last one of these guys were new refugees, the results would not indicate it was wrong to accept the refugees in the first place.
And I’m not saying that what happened is okay. I’m not saying that we don’t need to get to the bottom of this and stop it. I’m worried about a massive overreaction–the exact massive overreaction that ISIS would want. The one where brown people are treated as subhuman.
It’s just wrong to characterize this as telling the women of Germany they have to hide. No one has said anything remotely like that. We’re just saying that this, as bad as it is, does not mean it was wrong to accept the refugees.
Because, like it or not, they had it worse than any of these German women. No one is fleeing Germany. The police will get to the bottom of this.
Yes, this is something I dont understand about this story. I do not see why it’s so important to distinguish between refugees, immigrants and German born Muslims as the culprits of these attacks. Muslim refugees/immigrants produce German born Muslims. *If *there is a tendency for such crimes within the Islamic population then such distinctions between refugees and German born Islamic citizens are moot.
On what basis do you say we do “do not want to socially integrate into the existing populations”? What is the data basis of this assertion?
To be concrete in contrast I see by objective standards the native-born French muslim population is only barely distinguishable in the social habits from the non-muslim of the same social class - and yet one faces the fierce and documented discrimination from the ‘white French’ - survey after survey documents if you have a “immigrant” name (i.e. not a traditional French catholic one) there is great employment discrimination, the chances of getting interview and hired drop by half.
These things are concrete.
I would say that it is the racialist and the bigoted attitudes, documented in the France at least in the test cases and surveys on hiring, that contribute at least as much as any asserted “lack of assimilation” - indeed it makes the assimilation feel false and a mirage, to be called an immigrant when one is the native born, to see and see documented the sustained employment discrimination… frankly even to the extremely secular and non-practicing like myself finds this discourse about “assimilation” grossly hypocritical.
Of course there are the real problems, but the one sided discourse - in the French context I speak of - is nothing more than hypocritical bigotry.
yes that is
no it is not.
complete bullshit.
It is funny to see the anti-feminist angle used in this incident mere days old without many clear facts, the gross hypocrisy of instrumentalisation for the base politics.
why do you not say what this standard (or even what this stupid idea of “greater MENA” means)?
The problem with these comments is you people imagine that we are all living like the Saudis and the Iranians (or the stereotypes of them). We are not. I can not count the number of times the americans visiting me express astonishment about how many women working in the bank in Tunis or Casablanca and at such management levels - and that people are not wearing the burqa etc. It comes through here as well, this background image quite clearly.
Of course just as in every place, there is also the strong difference between the Urban and the Rural (and the recently urbanized rural immigrants and the long time urbans).
Of course Nava being Mediterranean I agree with, the idea that somehow the urban situation in the Maghreb is far in terms of the issues from where the Italians and the Spanish were in 1980s in the laws and the status is … well if you are not relying on over generalisations it is merely factual.
Basically I agree with you it is cultural. In the U.K. the softly, softly don’t upset the Muslims approach has not worked. Offenders must receive harsh sentences and be deported to their country of origin, details of the offenders must go into a international register so that they can be refused entry into other countries
Ah, the old excuse “but we used to do it too”.
This is totally irrelevant. But I want to emphasize that it is also illogical.
When we used to do Bad Things, we had no higher authority telling us to stop doing it. Our own goverments gave us the authority to do Bad Things (like keep slaves, or to torture non-Catholics and burn them at the stake.)
But the Muslims in Europe today know that there is an ultimate authority called the state goverment.They even chose which authority they want to live under. That’s why they bypass Greece and Hungary and insist on entering Germany–because the official authority there is more to the immigrants’ liking. So simple logic says, “if you choose to force your way into your favorite country, you have to obey the rules of the governing authority when you get there”.
Trying to excuse disgusting behaviour by using white guilt and irrelevant examples from history is not just morally wrong–it’s illogical.
Good people can debate questions of morality–but not simple logic.
Because the English borrowed the French, la langue de Molière plutôt que les langages rudes nordiques.
only if immigrant is to mean the permanent untermenschen underclass. Young men of the north african origin, if of the Moroccan or the Algerian origin, probably of the Riffi and Qabiyle origins, can easily be the 2nd or the 3rd generation.
Because there is not any reason to suppose “islamic” (Muslim) citizens are the problem contre low-class immigrants or low-class young hoodlums coming from the ghettoes.
there is a grand difference between growing up in the country and not as well.
in any case there are huge cultural differences between the immigrant who is from the urban background and has those values and those from the Rif who have the country values.
since he did not excuse anything, completely illogical as a response.
of course 4-5 days of the confused and unclear reporting is just like years of idiotic cover up… yes it is totally logic to equate the two and not just prejudiced untermenschen linking.
I’ve read this about six times and I’m still no closer to figuring out what the hell it is you’re blathering about. What on Earth does “the gross hypocrisy of instrumentalisation” mean? What the fuck are “the base politics”?
Here’s a thought, if you want to get all sanctimonious about how desperate Muslims are to integrate into Western societies, why don’t you lead by example and try improving your grasp of basic English grammar so the rest of us don’t have to waste our time deciphering your reams of cryptic gibberish?
easy - you drag in an attack on the feminism into this issue only days old is gross hypocrisy and nothing more than base politics.
My integration into some western society has not one thing to do with the English language, although the statement does highlight nicely the prejudices.
You’re the first person to mention the colour of their skin. And that’s assuming they’re all ‘brown’, which many immigrants aren’t. Also what many people are uncomfortable with is the culture and values they are bringing with them.
Wow, I bet the women who were assaulted and raped would be reassured by that, and the men who love them who had to let it happen because they were not in a position to stop it.
I agree.
Well its already been reported that a high proportion of suspects were asylum seekers, and if it was carried out by second or third generation immigrants, well they aren’t integrating very well, are they?
There are people in this thread who are saying we shouldn’t condemn what happened because they’re from a troubled area. And Merkel did invite them, and unilaterally at that.
Tell me how it is possible to “immigrate very well” as a 3rd generation person… Indeed how is it possible to be a “third generation immigrant” as a natively born person?
Since the rape and the sexual assult are hardly things unique to these men, how is it that a certain type here has jumped to the conclusion about the culture broadly or the immigrants broadly over the singular incident where we are not yet sure of any of the facts…
Who has said the guilty persons should not be condemned? (never mind not condemned becasue of where they come from) I have not noticed one single such post. Maybe I missed it (a single such post)
the only argument that I have noticed is not wishing to condemn all the immigrants or all the muslims in Germany over the actions of a band of criminal youth.
I disagree. There is every reason to believe that both recent immigrants and German born Muslim are the problem here. Both seem to have been represented in those identified as committing the attacks, though recent immigrants are disproportionately over-represented. We have seen in other countries there really is no distinction to be made between the levels of sexual crimes committed by 2nd generation Muslim immigrants and those of recent Muslim immigrants. The crimes committed in Rotherham were committed by 2nd generation immigrants. It’s my contention these crimes are a cultual problem amongst the Muslim population. It is not limited to immigrants, though I wouldn’t dare suggest it was a problem amongst the whole Muslim population in the West, just a worryingly large minority of them.