Ooh, whereabouts? I love a good laugh
A list? No, I am not going to make a list. It isn’t my fault that your 6th grade teacher didn’t do their job, and that you are ignorant of basic facts of history. I know you learned from Chomsky or whoever that only America or the West does bad things. It just so happens that what you have been taught is a bunch of infantile bullshit, and no amount of pointing and laughing is going to change that. Try looking up Tarek Fatah, or just pay the slightest bit of attention to what is happening in the world around you: Saudi funded mosques spreading Islamic supremacy from Nigeria to Norway to Malaysia, or the formation of ISIS and genocide of Yazidis, Christians, and Shia, or theArabization of Pakistan.
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright]
Bear in mind that you are asking for a follow up from a post who is explaining elsewhere why Obama is factually a Muslim.
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Not exactly.
If you are so interested in the subject, why don’t you try quoting the statement in question, and then explaining how it is incorrect?
[quote=“Hank_Beecher, post:803, topic:742538”]
A list? No, I am not going to make a list. It isn’t my fault that your 6th grade teacher didn’t do their job, and that you are ignorant of basic facts of history. .
Can anyone tell me just what it is with anti-islamic types and the whole burden of proof that so confuses them? I’ve already been told off once by a mod so I’m not going to try to illustrate to him why this approach is silly, but really they all seem to struggle with probably the first tenet of logic.
The existence and extent of Arab and Islamic imperialism are basic proven facts of history. Thus, if you wish to deny their existence, the burden of proof is on you. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, as they say.
Or, as they also say, you’ve got nothing.
Out of interest when would you claim was the last Arab invasion of the west, for example? I mean Ataturk’s obviously out, considering his non-arabic routes and belief in secular government, so I guess you’re looking at the Ottoman empire? I don’t know, it’s hard to say because you refuse to answer.
Whereas let’s have a look at western imperialism in the area of late. How about the British promoting Ibn Saud for example, gosh hasn’t that one come back to bite us. Then again, you can’t just blame the Brits for that, eh, because let’s not forget the the whole American involvement in ventures such as Arabian American Oil Co, or Saudi Aramco as they’ve been known for the last few decades.
And of course there’s slight issues such as French colonial antics in Syria (Bombing Damascus. and trying to arrest the democratically appointed government, for example, in 1945) or Algeria. Oh dear, Algeria. Do you really want me to go into this one? It’s not pretty.
Or how about the time Britain and the USdecided in 1953 to overthrow another democratically elected government, this time in Iran. Wow, that worked out spectacularly well for us, when unrest and dissent at the authoritarian gimp we promoted led to an upswelling of support for his hardcore Islamic rival, Khomeni. Gosh, weren’t we clever there.
Afghanistan? Nah, don’t think you want me to bang on about that. How about something more recent? How about our now legendarily successful invasion of Iraq to find those weapons of mass destruction we were absolutely certain about.
So go on, why don’t you tell us again about how that regime is such a fucking mess due to “Arab and Islamic imperialism”
You should realize that you are basically entering into Holocaust denier territory here, in terms of your argumentation. There is absolutely no legitimate controversy over whether or not Arab and Islamic imperialism has had drastic effects on the world. Other forms of Imperialism don’t change this at all, no more than the Armenian genocide subtracts the atrocities of the Nazis from existence.
Why do you suppose that the same word for God, or the same public-identity-denying dress code for women is used in of Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Pakistan, and Indonesia? How did Arab and Islamic ideals and codes of conduct spread so far and wide, and how are they spreading still? You seem to think that what happened, as Kunwar Khuldune Shahid writes, was that the “ideology was spread throughout the world by exchanging candy bouquets.”
So because you can’t provide any examples of islamic or arab imperialism in the region that compares with the well documented western issues, the problem is with my argument.
Seriously, according to your stance this should be easy for you. You should be rattling off incidents with aplomb, not hiding behind vague references from a blogger whose entire comment on Arab imperialism is:
“The women protesting topless in support of a Tunisian woman, who faces death for doing the same, is quite clearly a racist, colonialist and orientalist move. It’s a part of a global imperialistic conspiracy to demean the hub of development that the Muslim world is and an orientalist scheme to undermine the archetype of women empowerment that the Middle East is. It’s always inspiring to listen to Muslims clamour against imperialism, because of course their own ideology was spread throughout the world by exchanging candy bouquets.”
Are we talking Caliphate 1 to 4 here, or what? Siege of Constantinople perhaps, or maybe the Iberian occupation? I’ve already mentioned the Ottoman empire, after all. Come on, in your own time and preferably with a cite or two why don’t you outline just how you think Islamic/Arab imperiallism has been fucking things up there in recent history.
Try going back And reading post 803. Next you might want to stop hand waving genocide, but hey, that’s up to you.
I linked to that post because I was stealing the author’s phrase, not because it directly addresses the idiocy you are spouting here. If you want something perfectly relevant to it, you can try this:
The War Nerd: Islamic State and American Narcissism
Here’s a short excerpt:
Hank, you really ought to start staking out debate points you can support.
The reality of Arab and Islamic imperialism is something that only those who are amazingly sheltered from reality try to dispute. And the same goes for the Chomsky fanboys who hallucinate visions of Western imperialism at the wellspring of every problem anywhere in the world.
It is world view born of ignorant narcissistic political tribalism, and well on it’s way to becoming an anachronistic relic of the Dylan era.
Good article that, I like it a lot. Did you read it?
So, care to tell me just how you think this article supports the idea that Arab/Islamic imperialism has been the cause of the issues out there. Then again, that’s not too surprising to anyone who does like the War Nerd, because he’s always been quite clear on what he thinks caused the entire cluster fuck that is ISIS:
If there’s any other sources you’d like to put forward that also disagree with your stance, feel free to keep them coming.
It doesn’t disagree with my stance, but it does critique the type of response that you gave when you reflexively blamed Western imperialism for rapes and sexual assaults happening on the streets of German cities. I had the same thing in mind when I responded to your reflex by assuming, in jest, that you instead meant Arab and Islamic imperialism.
I never once claimed that recent military actions have played no role in the motivation and recruitment of terrorists.
You have yet to comment on the fact that Belgium hasn’t been a victim of allied military attacks for some time, yet has greatly contributed to the membership of ISIS. Please explain how ranks of North African immigrants to Western Europe could be driven to fight and die in an attempt to establish an Islamic State in the Levant, with a certainty that their martyrdom will send them to paradise, without Islamic imperialism?
Oh but it does:
Emphasis added. Not “Islamic imperialism.” Not “Arab imperialism.” But the “sullen resentment [of the country’s Sunnis] at being dethroned as the brutal bosses of Iraq.”
What position does it disagree with?
This chain of exchanges originated with Gary’s remarks, which were about migrants in Germany, not unemployed Bathists in Iraq.
Take a step back and look at the in fighting between the different Islamic sects, the indiscriminant terrorist attacks, the attacks on any religion that does not follow the religion of Islam. I am sorry but when I look at Islam I see an intolerant hate filled killing machine. I do not blame Allah, the Prophet or the Quran. This is down to those who call them selves Muslims and the only people who are going to sort this abomination out are Muslims. please do not start throwing in examples from history of Christian brutality, that is in the past, I am talking about the here and now.
Is it too much to hope you’d read your own cites?
For starters, and as others have pointed out, yes it does disagree with your stance. Secondly, it has nothing to do with the idea that the mass arrival of refugees/immigrants in Europe is a direct response to the various little wars (both direct and proxy) that the west is participating in in the region. It’s an entirely justified rant condemning those who would defend ISIS using any form of tu quoque. Seriously, read the bloody article:
And what’s really bloody galling is when you try to rebut with this:
“Please explain how ranks of North African immigrants to Western Europe could be driven to fight and die in an attempt to establish an Islamic State in the Levant, with a certainty that their martyrdom will send them to paradise, without Islamic imperialism?”
WTF? You now want me to defend the arguments made in YOUR OWN BLOODY CITES? Did you miss this? Just in case, here’s what your linked article argues:
You produced the bloody article. Should I take it then that actually you disagree with his logic? That somehow when you linked to it you didn’t mean that you agreed with it?
Seriously, at least make an attempt at cogency.
No, it does not. I included Arab and Islamic imperialism in a list of factors, it seems like you can only understand that to mean that is the only factor, which is a failure of logic on your part. I have read the article twice, once when it came out and again when I posted it.
And the attitude Brecher is critiquing with “The US is the root of all evil, so IS is only acting out because it’s a victim. We did something bad to it somehow.” is very similar to your response in which you blamed rapes and sexual assaults in Germany on Western Imperialism.
Your having another logic fail here. It’s like you expect there to be only one factor or something. Yes, boredom is one factor that leads pampered Western European Muslims to join ISIS, and maybe even to abuse women, including on the streets of Europe. Another factor is the Islamic imperialism that imposed the brutally misogynistic codes of conduct on the societies that they migrated from, wiping out much of the vast, diverse, cultural landscape in a process that is ongoing to this day.
I mostly agree with it. I quoted the part that is relevant, which is descriptive of your reflexive blaming of the sexual assaults of German women by Muslim migrants on Western Imperialism.
Hank, you’ve got nothing to say, but love to keep saying it.
In absence of you providing any actual cite that supports your position, or an example of the sort of imperialism I’ve given you multiple examples of, there’s precisely zero point continuing this any further.
imperialism (ɪmˈpɪərɪəˌlɪzəm)
n
- (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the policy or practice of extending a state’s rule over other territories
- (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) an instance or policy of aggressive behaviour by one state against another
**3. the extension or attempted extension of authority, influence, power, etc, by any person, country, institution, etc: cultural imperialism.
**4. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a system of imperial government or rule by an emperor - (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the spirit, character, authority, etc, of an empire
- (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) advocacy of or support for any form of imperialism
imˈperialist adj, n
imˌperialˈistic adj
imˌperialˈistically adv
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014
Now that has been sorted could we have some idea’s how we can rid Islam of the abomination that is fouling the religion of millions of people.